Is America a Republic, or, a Democracy?!?!?

[righteousdude2]

There are some on this forum who continue to "cram-down-our-throats" their belief that America is a "republic."

Personally, I've always thought we were a "democracy", but, whenever I refer to this being a "democracy" I hear it from those who disagree.

Well, I went to the Merriam-Webster On-line Dictionary copyright © 2009 by Merriam-Webster, and after reading the official definitions, I concede that we are not just a democracy, but, a republic, thus, we are all partially correct... so, can we agree in the future to say that America is a "DEMOCRATIC--REPUBLIC!"

DEMOCRACY: 1. a government by the people especially rule of the majority b. government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised - by the way, did Congress really do this (exercise the power vested in them by their constituents) when they voted for the HRC? - by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
2. a political unit that has a democratic government
3. capitalized the principles and policies of the Democratic party in the United States - from emancipation Republicanism to New Deal Democracy - C. M. Roberts
4. the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority
5. the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges

REPUBLIC: 1. a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president. (2)a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government (1). b (1)a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law(2). (2)a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government. ca usually specified republican government of a political unit - the French Fourth Republic
2. a body of persons freely engaged in a specified activity - the ∼ of letters
3. a constituent political and territorial unit of the former nations of Czechoslovakia, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, or Yugoslavia

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:

I am Pastor Paul, and the above is as correct and honest I can make it. Although it is my conclusion that we are a Democratic-Republic, in no way am I being dishonest, misrepresenting the truth, or, presenting anything that is anti-Obama. Although, I still reserve the "right" to dislike the guy, and according to my Constitutional rights and the Amendments to that Constitution - http://www.superkids.com/aweb/pages/features/netporn/amndmnts.htm - I am freely exercising my right to speak freely.

Gosh! I hope I haven't stepped on anyones toes???:sleep:

 

[Salty]

From Wikipedia, I found this definition:


"Democratic Republic — Tends to be used by countries who have a particular desire to emphasize their claim to be democratic; these are typically Communist states and/or ex-colonies. Examples include the German Democratic Republic (no longer in existence) and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. "

I contend we are a Republic. In a democracy, each citizen would actually vote on Evey issue. Obviously, with 300 million citizens, that would be a pit of a problem.

 

[rbell]

There are some on this forum who continue to "cram-down-our-throats" their belief that America is a "republic."

Personally, I've always thought we were a "democracy", but, whenever I refer to this being a "democracy" I hear it from those who disagree.

You can quote Merriam-Webster all you want. I'll quote our Founding Fathers. They're the ones that set up our country's governmental system...and they're the ones who avoided a "democracy."

Democracy:
A government of the masses.
Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of "direct" expression.
Results in mobocracy.
Attitude toward property is comunistic-negating property rights.
Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate. whether it be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences.
Results in demagogism license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.
Democracy is the "direct" rule of the people and has been repeatedly tried without success.
A certain Professor Alexander Fraser Tytler, nearly two centuries ago, had this to say about Democracy: " A Democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of Government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largess out of public treasury. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that Democracy always collapses over a loose fiscal policy, always to be followed by a Dictatorship."
A democracy is majority rule and is destructive of liberty because there is no law to prevent the majority from trampling on individual rights. Whatever the majority says goes! A lynch mob is an example of pure democracy in action. There is only one dissenting vote, and that is cast by the person at the end of the rope.

Republic:
Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them.
Attitude toward property is respect for laws and individual rights, and a sensible economic procedure.
Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles and established evidence, with a strict regard to consequences.
A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass.
Avoids the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy. Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice, contentment, and progress.
Is the "standard form" of government throughout the world.
A republic is a form of government under a constitution which provides for the election of:

1. an executive and
2. a legislative body, who working together in a representative capacity, have all the power of appointment, all power of legislation all power to raise revenue and appropriate expenditures, and are required to create
3. a judiciary to pass upon the justice and legality of their governmental acts and to recognize
4. certain inherent individual rights.

Take away any one or more of those four elements and you are drifting into autocracy. Add one or more to those four elements and you are drifting into democracy.
Our Constitutional fathers, familiar with the strength and weakness of both autocracy and democracy, with fixed principles definitely in mind, defined a representative republican form of government. They "made a very marked distinction between a republic and a democracy and said repeatedly and emphatically that they had founded a republic."
A republic is a government of law under a Constitution. The Constitution holds the government in check and prevents the majority (acting through their government) from violating the rights of the individual. Under this system of government a lynch mob is illegal. The suspected criminal cannot be denied his right to a fair trial even if a majority of the citizenry demands otherwise.

SOURCE

"A Democracy is mob rule--where 51% of the people may take away the rights of the other 49." -Thomas Jefferson

This book HERE is fantastic...it tells very clearly what our FF's thought of "democracy" (hint: They didn't like it...that's why we're a "Constitutional Republic.")

Basic civics. BIG difference between the two.

 

[preachinjesus]

There isn't even a legitimate conversation to be had here. The proof is overwhelming that the United States is a federal constitutional republic. It was set up as a republic. It says all over the place that it is a republic.

I don't know anyone who can justifiably argue that we are a democracy. We aren't. This isn't even a discussion.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

You can quote Merriam-Webster all you want. I'll quote our Founding Fathers. They're the ones that set up our country's governmental system...and they're the ones who avoided a "democracy."




SOURCE

"A Democracy is mob rule--where 51% of the people may take away the rights of the other 49." -Thomas Jefferson

This book HERE is fantastic...it tells very clearly what our FF's thought of "democracy" (hint: They didn't like it...that's why we're a "Constitutional Republic.")

Basic civics. BIG difference between the two.

There isn't even a legitimate conversation to be had here. The proof is overwhelming that the United States is a federal constitutional republic. It was set up as a republic. It says all over the place that it is a republic.

I don't know anyone who can justifiably argue that we are a democracy. We aren't. This isn't even a discussion.

You are bang on fellas. I wish Civics was still taught in school.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I can only report what its supposed to be. Not what it is currently. The founders founded a republic based on a democratic system. However, is that what we are? I think were a socialist country with a declining democratic system.

 

[billwald]

The US IS a plutocracy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy

Also a republic, same as North Korea, the old USSR . . . .

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The US IS a plutocracy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy

Also a republic, same as North Korea, the old USSR . . . .

I have to change my position and agree with you.

 

[Salty]

The US IS a plutocracy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy

From the link: "Before the equal voting rights movement managed to end it in the early 20th century, many countries used a system where rich persons had more votes than poor. A factory owner may for instance have had 2000 votes while a worker had one,"

Would it really be wrong to base voting on how much taxes you pay.

Really, why should Tom who is on welfare get to vote in someone who will just increase Tom's welfare check, and Jim ends up paying more taxes to cover Tom's living expenses - or should we say wants?

Any shouldn't a corporations be allowed to vote. I would venture to say a corp pays a large % of the property taxes that goes for local schools?

Salty

PS Those who have earned checks from the govt (Social Security, military, ect would still be allowed to vote)

 

[preachinjesus]

Would it really be wrong to base voting on how much taxes you pay.

Really, why should Tom who is on welfare get to vote in someone who will just increase Tom's welfare check, and Jim ends up paying more taxes to cover Tom's living expenses - or should we say wants?

Any shouldn't a corporations be allowed to vote. I would venture to say a corp pays a large % of the property taxes that goes for local schools?

Wow what a terrible idea. This harkens back to the days where some people were valued less than others. Just because it is a republic form of government doesn't mean it is an autocratic regime. The general public, under this schema, would never out vote the major corporations. Do you really want a Chinese corporation that owns half of downtown Manhattan having a say in the government of our nation?

Absolutely not. This is a terrible idea.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

There are some on this forum who continue to "cram-down-our-throats" their belief that America is a "republic."

Yeah, go figure.

Personally, I've always thought we were a "democracy", but, whenever I refer to this being a "democracy" I hear it from those who disagree.

That's because when you refer to it as a Democracy, you're showing your ignorance and we're trying to correct you.

Well, I went to the Merriam-Webster On

I am Pastor Paul, and the above is as correct and honest I can make it. Although it is my conclusion that we are a Democratic-Republic, in no way am I being dishonest, misrepresenting the truth, or, presenting anything that is anti-Obama. Although, I still reserve the "right" to dislike the guy, and according to my Constitutional rights and the Amendments to that Constitution - http://www.superkids.com/aweb/pages/features/netporn/amndmnts.htm - I am freely exercising my right to speak freely.

Absolutely. The Constitution does gauarantee your right to be wrong.

 

[windcatcher]

Our country was founded as a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC.

 

[rbell]

Do you really want a Chinese corporation that owns half of downtown Manhattan having a say in the government of our nation?

Sometimes I wonder if they already do... :saint:raying:

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Our country was founded as a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC.

Exactly. I am not going to source what is common knowledge, but our Founding Fathers abhorred the concept on democracy. They thought of it as a kind of 'mob rule' that would lead to destruction.

 

[Rubato 1]

Read 12 of the 85 Federalist Papers (esp #51) and call me when you're done. There is no question that we are a republic. Alex Hamilton called it a 'Federal Republic'.

The 'Federal' part of our description is now largely lost (17th ammendment and several Supreme Court decisions that infringe on the states' soveriegnty) and we resemble what many call a 'Constitutional Republic' though these words can be twisted to mean many different things.

 

[righteousdude2]

History Lessons Learned, Thanks....

... BUT, I want to thank the person who gave me the Wikipedia site, because on another Wikipdeia site, their article and info on Democracy, could very well support my initial thoughts.

America may be a Republic, but, it is Democratic in how it metes out and implements its freedoms "of the people, by the people!"

I still contend, and I reserve my right to be wrong, that America is a government that reflects both the good and bad of a nation that is a Democratically run Republic. Thus, I believe we are a democratic republic. We can't have the points of one without the points of the other.

The Wikipedia and Merriam Webster Definition of Democracy and Republic support that were are operating under the principles of both definitions.

IMHO, we can't have a Republic without an active Democracy, and vice versa.

Respectfully submitted, while you may believe me to be wrong, I too, believe that to not see how this nation operates under the principles of both a republic and a democracy, is in error!

By the way, I appreciate the civil manner in which you all corrected my weaknesses in social Studies. That was not my best subject in school, and you have all been Christ-like in correcting my opinion.

However, I'd like to have you explain how we reflect the ideals of a Republic, and not reflect the ideals of a Democracy at the same time?

In fairness, I'd like to point out to you who lovingly disagreed with my premise, that there was a time when the Russia was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

Does that make your contention that America is a Republic more like the Russia of old?

I've truly enjoyed this spirited debate, even though it is presently me against the board. It is as the board should be: CIVIL...:thumbsup:

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[righteousdude2]

That's because when you refer to it as a Democracy, you're showing your ignorance and we're trying to correct you.

That's because when you refer to it as a Democracy, you're showing your ignorance and we're trying to correct you.QUOTE]

I may be wrong, but, I'm defintiely not "ignorant."

A newer member on the board uses the following as his closing SIGNATURE: IT'S NOT ONLY UNMERCIFUL, BUT UNNATURAL AND ABOMINABLE; YEA MONSTROUS FOR ONE CHRISTIAN TO VEX AND DESTROY ANOTHER FOR DIFFERENCE AND QUESTIONS OF RELIGION- Leonard Busher "an old-school Baptist"

May I suggest that you try a different approach when making corrections of others posts. It would make you look so much more Christ like when others read these post.comments, and it would create less "ill-will" between you and other members.

I have repented from my past sins on this board, and I am attempting to remind others to do the same. The above SIGNATURE Closing is so much like what God would expect out of all of us as we react to one another on the board. Of course, you can do as you will, but, as for me, I am turning over a new leaf, when it comes to defending my integrity, my name, and my posts.

Say what you may, if you don't agree and can't voice you disagreement in a way that lifts up Jesus, it is best that you remain silent!
Peace Brother,

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[THEOLDMAN]

Wow what a terrible idea. This harkens back to the days where some people were valued less than others. Just because it is a republic form of government doesn't mean it is an autocratic regime. The general public, under this schema, would never out vote the major corporations. Do you really want a Chinese corporation that owns half of downtown Manhattan having a say in the government of our nation?

Absolutely not. This is a terrible idea.

I agree 100%

 

[righteousdude2]

Much Disagreement, but Poll Tells A Different Story...

I can't help but notice that the comments are overwhelming not in agreement with my thought that America is a Democratic-Republic. However, the poll, though it is not official in any way, shows that 7 think we're a Republic, and 6 think we're a Democratic-Republic.

Go figure???:BangHead:

 

[windcatcher]

... BUT, I want to thank the person who gave me the Wikipedia site, because on another Wikipdeia site, their article and info on Democracy, could very well support my initial thoughts.

America may be a Republic, but, it is Democratic in how it metes out and implements its freedoms "of the people, by the people!"

WC
What is confusing you is the difference between a democracy and a republic. A democracy may or may not be a republic.... but a republic includes democracy but is not a true democracy. A democracy always depends on majority rule. In the event that there are definite divisions unequal....... the majority can rule and oppress its advantage over a minority. There is nothing to restrain or call into question the choice of the voter to prefer his own good at the expense of another..... and the vote is final. There is almost no recourse to return to an issue due to matters of conscience or reconsideration if an injustice or oppression occurs.... which leaves little opportunity for the oppressed minority to correct that which law imposes upon it except through agitation, aggression and perhaps violence..... which serve more to marginalize its already weak position.

A republic is a system of representation whereby... persons are elected and are held responsible for promoting the good of all when making law. Because they are chosen, usually by election... there is the appearance of a majority which places them in office. However, when it is considered that there is nothing whcih compels people to vote.... It is seldom when the majority of votes for a person is truly reflective of a majority of eligible voters. Therefore, it is a false miscalculation and arrogance when a person takes office and presumes upon consideration for the welfare (or good) of all the people, the promotion of his own ideas as being representative of a majority. IOW, he has a responsibility to represent ALL the people.... those who voted, those who voted against him and those who did not vote. If he fails to consider this, he also fails to represent the people and he fails in preserving the peace of all by neither giving advantage to a majority or treating with indifference the needs of a minority.... as both and all appeal to his judgement in matters of law and justice.

I still contend, and I reserve my right to be wrong, that America is a government that reflects both the good and bad of a nation that is a Democratically run Republic. Thus, I believe we are a democratic republic. We can't have the points of one without the points of the other.

WC
We are a constitutional republic..... that is what the law of our land establishes and calls us. Nowhere in the document will you find democracy.

The Wikipedia and Merriam Webster Definition of Democracy and Republic support that were are operating under the principles of both definitions.

IMHO, we can't have a Republic without an active Democracy, and vice versa.

Respectfully submitted, while you may believe me to be wrong, I too, believe that to not see how this nation operates under the principles of both a republic and a democracy, is in error!

By the way, I appreciate the civil manner in which you all corrected my weaknesses in social Studies. That was not my best subject in school, and you have all been Christ-like in correcting my opinion.

However, I'd like to have you explain how we reflect the ideals of a Republic, and not reflect the ideals of a Democracy at the same time?

In fairness, I'd like to point out to you who lovingly disagreed with my premise, that there was a time when the Russia was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

Does that make your contention that America is a Republic more like the Russia of old?

I've truly enjoyed this spirited debate, even though it is presently me against the board. It is as the board should be: CIVIL...:thumbsup:

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:

:flower: Hope its clearer now.