Of course Faith is not a work, it is given by God. Another aspect of faith is work however. We can exercise the faith that God has given us.
Yep, you are still the best Calvinist/non-Calvinist on the board. :laugh:
God does not make everyone born again huh? Unconditional election.
Is belief the hinge of our salvation?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by reformedbeliever, Apr 9, 2008.
Page 3 of 5
-
-
skypair -
-
IMO,
R1 -
Do you know what would be "unloving," Hd? To set up a glorious restroom and post a sign outside, "Whites Only." You've just basically told me that God doesn't invite everyone into His heaven -- that unless you are one of His "fair-haired elect," God not only isn't going to let you in but is going to exercise His wrath on you who have no other option but to commit the sin that provokes God's wrath! And this is LOVE?? To me, it sounds like Hitler ... Stalin ... Nero. Guess whose theology looks "unloving" now.Click to expand...
-
Faith
Faith is given to us by God through the words of Jesus, but as the young rich ruler we can just walk away from it.
I have no problem with many things that calvs teach, but thier regeneration is after faith, for that is scriptual.
We are all dead until the words of Jesus is presented we are headed for destruction.
The words of Jesus does not incline us to believe, but it presents two roads belief in Jesus or unbelief and the consequences for the road we are on.
Paul was saying to the people i'm not lying God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, because they wouldn't believe Him.
That is a message for us to go reach the world with the Gospel.
Don't worry if you are the elect of God or not, trust in Jesus not men and you will not be disappointed -
nunatak said:Webdog, correct me if I am wrong (do I actually think you might not?), but the ONLY way for Lot to be righteous is by faith?Click to expand...
-
Abraham gave Lot first choice. It is YOUR interpretation that it was disrspectful for Lot to take that Land. Nowhere does it even imply in the text itself, that it was disrespectful of Lot to DO what his elder TOLD HIM to do...Click to expand...
Lot was willing to sacrifice his daughters, to protect the messengers of God. Misguided, sure. I suppose you condemn Abraham for raising the knife with the PURE intent of Killing Isaac?
Look here>
"I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly.
Gen 19:8 Behold, I have two daughters who have not known any man. Let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please. Only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof."Click to expand...
True. However, how easy would it be for you to leave your in laws in a city about to be nuked?Click to expand...
Yeah, after seeing his wife killed. Notice here>
Pro 31:6 Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress;
Pro 31:7 let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.Click to expand...
Discount part of scripture if you wish. Scripture says Lot was righteous, and he was greatly distressed at the wickedness around him. I will believe scripture, You can believe whatever tickles your fancy.Click to expand... -
reformedbeliever said:We (Calvinist) never deny that we are born again by faith. We simply believe that saving faith is given by God.Click to expand...
-
1Cr 15:33 Do not be deceived: "Evil company corrupts good habits."
I think Lot is a good example of what can happen when we get too involved in "the world". Lot's righeousness was due to his faith, not because of his acts.
We have to be careful who we hang around with, because like Lot, we can be corrupted through the influence of ungodly people. -
webdog said:Study the customs of the day and come back. It's hardly my interpretation...Click to expand...
First, he called the wicked men 'brothers'...second, giving two virgin daughters to be molested is a sin, and he knew it. Sinning in order to prevent another sin is still sin.Click to expand...
Also, you spoke of a knowledge of the culture. Well, apparently you don't have one yourself. Lot, as the host, was required to do whatever was necessary to prevent harm to his guests, even sacrificing himself and his family.
That's eisegesis, as the text says nothing about his desire for his in laws.Click to expand...
Gen 19:14 So Lot went out and said to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, "Up! Get out of this place, for the LORD is about to destroy the city." But he seemed to his sons-in-law to be jesting.
Gen 19:15 As morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Up! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be swept away in the punishment of the city."
Gen 19:16 But he lingered (hesitated).
Why are you trying to find excuse for his sin? It's like this...is it sin, or isn't it? If it is, regardless of what excuse you can come up with, it is NOT living in righteousness!Click to expand...
1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
This is clearly NOT speaking of "positional justification". It speaking of ones actual lifestyle. and it even warns you NOT to let yourself be deceived!
If you go down, this is CLEARLY seen!!
1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
This word means "shining, public, apparent". No one can "see" positional justification. It is talking about one's lifestyle.
Who's discounting Scripture? Surely not I! Someone not walking with the Lord can STILL be distressed by the wickedness around them, that proves nothing. There are plenty of people who are not Christians that do not support homosexuality and abortion. Are they now "righteous" because they are distressed at what the world has become?Click to expand... -
Ahh, the arrogance. Unless you have a Doctorate in Ancient history, my knowledge is at least comparable to yours. Ancient Semitic cultures were patristic> had Lot refused this gift from Abram, it would have been considered an insult. When the eldest in your family gave you a gift, you were required to accept it. Lot committed no sin here.Click to expand...
What Bible are you reading?
Gen 19:14 So Lot went out and said to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, "Up! Get out of this place, for the LORD is about to destroy the city." But he seemed to his sons-in-law to be jesting.
Gen 19:15 As morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Up! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be swept away in the punishment of the city."
Gen 19:16 But he lingered (hesitated).Click to expand...
Your reading your belief into the text. for all you know, this may have been Lot's literal Kin. The text conveys him speaking in a friendly manner, to try to get them to stop.
Also, you spoke of a knowledge of the culture. Well, apparently you don't have one yourself. Lot, as the host, was required to do whatever was necessary to prevent harm to his guests, even sacrificing himself and his family.Click to expand...
Your non sequitur on positional justification is not needed. Fact is, Lot was deemed righteous...he was not living the lifestyle of one deemed righteous. Quite simple.
It says that Lot because of his righteousness, was distressed. Lot, according to scripture practiced righteousness. Of course, we do still sin (just as Lot did). But we walk in the light> though we may stumble, from time to time.Click to expand... -
reformedbeliever said:We (Calvinist) never deny that we are born again by faith.Click to expand...
I guess my new question is do you agree that it is by faith that we are born-again (or by faith we are regenerated) ??
Did your view change somewhat along the way??
We simply believe that saving faith is given by GodClick to expand...
In either case it is the mechanics not the truth which is seen differently. Yet the truth still remains - there is no saving faith with out God. -
A point of clarification:
In the history of calvinism there have been two views in respect to regeneration:
1. For example Milliard Erickson, a respected calvinist and author of Christian Theology, believes that at the point of the Effectual Call of God, the heart of the sinner is open to express repentance and faith and then experiences Regeneration.
2. Grudem, on the other hand, author of Systematic Theology, believes that a person's heart is regenerated first by the Spirit and then the sinner is able to express repentance and faith. -
Define "time to time". Is this hours? Days? Months? Years?Click to expand...
Think of a Airplane pilot. Truly an airplane pilot can mess up. He can crash. However, a trained Airplane pilot, though not perfect, is CLEARLY distinguishable from a person who is NOT an Airplane pilot, under observation. While an Airplane pilot might mess up and crash the plane, a person totally ignorant of its function will ALWAYS crash the plane. This is the type of thing scripture speaks of, when it talks of our "walk". Like I said, either that, or scripture contradicts itself.
When people start speaking of salvation in such ways, it makes me think of this situation. Imagine, if you will, someone trying to talk the pilot into letting another gentleman fly the plane. The man says he is a trained pilot, so the rightful pilot acquiesces to his request.
Upon sitting down in the seat, the gentleman claiming to be a pilot begins flipping switches and hitting buttons. In the first five seconds, he turns off the engines, drops the cabin pressure, causing the masks to fall, and puts the plane into a nose dive. He then begins to panic.
"Your not a pilot!" the rightful pilot says, as he trys to regain his seat and save the passengers. The navigator grabs his arm, angrily, and says "Don't you remember last week when YOU forgot to tell the passengers to buckle their seat belts? I guess that means YOUR not a pilot, either, right?"
"Listen!", says the Pilot, "I mess up all the time. But that still doesn't change the fact, that it is VERY OBVIOUS this man is not a pilot! I am going to try to save him, as well as the other passengers!". Quickly the Pilot retakes his seat, and pulls the plane out of the nose dive.Click to expand... -
reformedbeliever said:Hello to you too brother. I'm not on here much anymore, but in my studies I came across this John 8 text where I somehow had never noticed that Jesus addresses Jews who believed, but told that they would die in their sin.
I don't want to go into the argument of regeneration necessarily.... as we have been there before huh? :)
My main purpose is the argument of whether two groups of Jews are in question. I am aware of the argument that some say there were two groups, but I disagree. I just don't see how you can get that from the plain reading of the text. Was God unable to say "Those who didn't believe answered Him?" John 8: 33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can you say, `You will be made free'?''
It is clear that Jesus was talking to the same Jews who said they believed. You would have to read into the text what is not there in order to come up with the conclusion of two different groups. You know what that is called brother. We can not do that in order to support our system of belief. Don't you agree that the context of John is that we have to be born again? That is why John the third chapter goes on the tell the verdict of God sending His only Son so that they should not perish........ the verdict or judgement being that men loved darkness rather than the light. Belief is not enough. You must be born again.Click to expand...
The believe it is referening to here needs to be understood. They believed in their 'preconcieved' notions of who and what he was, NOT who and what He truly was and was to do. Thus when face to face against the truth (such as Him to die) it stood completely in contrast to their view of who and what he was to do (become King and destroy their enemies).
This is why I state that faith of itself does nothing and saves no one. The only thing that gives faith any value or distiction is the object to which faith clings. Thus if one clings to a false view of Jesus that faith is a vain one.
EX. If I beleive all the historical facts about Christ but contend he is actaully of Isis or Marduke, then that faith in that christ is a vain and empty faith that can not save. Not because they do not have faith but because they placed that faith into the wrong object and no salvation is possible.
IOW - Belief in a lie can not save, even if the lie is formed from a truth. -
TCGreek said:A point of clarification:
In the history of calvinism there have been two views in respect to regeneration:
1. For example Milliard Erickson, a respected calvinist and author of Christian Theology, believes that at the point of the Effectual Call of God, the heart of the sinner is open to express repentance and faith and then experiences Regeneration.
2. Grudem, on the other hand, author of Systematic Theology, believes that a person's heart is regenerated first by the Spirit and then the sinner is able to express repentance and faith.Click to expand...
But which is the Classical Calvinistic view?
I always thought (which is my blunder I know) Grudem was classical and Erickson more moderate. -
Ummm. Test?
-
The "how much sin" question is irrelevant. The Bible says it will be obvious (apparent/shining brightly) who are children of God, rather than children of the devil. So I expect it to be "obvious".Click to expand...
Page 3 of 5