-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Is "Bibliolater" a Legitimate Term?
- Thread starter Dr. Bob
- Start date
--------------------------------------------------
There's no such thing as a perfect translation. The KJV is not a perfect translation of its source texts. It's a good translation using the language of the day (the 1600's), but it's not a perfect translation. That's a moot point, however, since Scripture does not promise preservation via translations.
--------------------------------------------------
Do you believe the Lord when he has said more than once, that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God? Oh, does God only mean for those who spoke/speak Hebrew and Greek? What then of Psalm 12? Are you one of God's faithful? Did God promise this for you also? Or is it only for the select few that can understand Hebrew and Greek? YOu are putting these languages above that of the words of God. It is the words of God, not the languages that are important and eternal.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
There's no such thing as a perfect translation. The KJV is not a perfect translation of its source texts. It's a good translation using the language of the day (the 1600's), but it's not a perfect translation. That's a moot point, however, since Scripture does not promise preservation via translations.
--------------------------------------------------
Do you believe the Lord when he has said more than once, that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God? Oh, does God only mean for those who spoke/speak Hebrew and Greek? What then of Psalm 12? Are you one of God's faithful? Did God promise this for you also? Or is it only for the select few that can understand Hebrew and Greek? YOu are putting these languages above that of the words of God. It is the words of God, not the languages that are important and eternal.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
--------------------------------------------------
The Dead Sea Scrolls predate any texts that the churches would have had through the centuries, as you claim.
--------------------------------------------------
So what. This is meaningless to me and irrelevant.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
The Dead Sea Scrolls predate any texts that the churches would have had through the centuries, as you claim.
--------------------------------------------------
So what. This is meaningless to me and irrelevant.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
--------------------------------------------------
There is no single "true word of God for the English speaking people". That's blatant heresy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since when is it heresy to believe that one has the very words of God perfectly and accurately?
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
There is no single "true word of God for the English speaking people". That's blatant heresy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since when is it heresy to believe that one has the very words of God perfectly and accurately?
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
--------------------------------------------------
Not quite. It is the MESSAGE contained in the words that are important and eternal.
--------------------------------------------------
Not quite. It is the WORDS that give the message accurately and perfectly that are important and eternal. You cannot have an accurate message, without the accurate WORDS that make up the message. If the WORDS are inaccurate, missing or changed (from the origional meaning) then the MESSAGE is inaccurate, distorted, changed and unreliable.
This is not what the Lord says about his own words in the scriptures. The Lord has said that His words are pure words, and that they are eternal, and that one jot, or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, until all be fulfilled. Doesn't say anything about the message, but about the jots and tittles, to which gives us the understanding of the importance of every word of God to which give us the accurate message or revelation.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Not quite. It is the MESSAGE contained in the words that are important and eternal.
--------------------------------------------------
Not quite. It is the WORDS that give the message accurately and perfectly that are important and eternal. You cannot have an accurate message, without the accurate WORDS that make up the message. If the WORDS are inaccurate, missing or changed (from the origional meaning) then the MESSAGE is inaccurate, distorted, changed and unreliable.
This is not what the Lord says about his own words in the scriptures. The Lord has said that His words are pure words, and that they are eternal, and that one jot, or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, until all be fulfilled. Doesn't say anything about the message, but about the jots and tittles, to which gives us the understanding of the importance of every word of God to which give us the accurate message or revelation.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
--------------------------------------------------
It's heresy to insist as a matter of doctrine that only one English translation can be the very words of God perfectly and accurately.
--------------------------------------------------
You didn't answer my question. Since when is it heresy to believe one has the very words of God accurately and perfectly in their own language?
Also, do you believe one can have the very words of God accurately and perfectly in their own language?
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
It's heresy to insist as a matter of doctrine that only one English translation can be the very words of God perfectly and accurately.
--------------------------------------------------
You didn't answer my question. Since when is it heresy to believe one has the very words of God accurately and perfectly in their own language?
Also, do you believe one can have the very words of God accurately and perfectly in their own language?
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
No we don't.
The original recipients of the Book of Revelation had access to the original Book of Revelation, or at least one of the seven churches had it and the others had copies and/or they passed it around.
We do not have the originals they have been lost in antiquity. The seven churches of the Revelation did not preserve the original apart from making copies of it.
See the passage below.
If they are faithful to the original language manuscripts I do.
My faith is in the Lord Jesus Christ and His Atonement and the leading of the Holy Spirit in my life. As applicable to my choice of translations I have several that I use.
When in doubt as to the best translation of a passage I go to the Greek or Hebrew.
I am in perfect peace concerning this matter.
Psalm 119:89 LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
We don't live in the eternal state yet, therefore His Words have been given to us on earth via a progressive revelation in the time continuum that we live in.
Only heaven, the dwelling place of Our Father can hold His eternal Word from eternity past to eternity to come.
HankD
Michelle:You didn't answer my question. Since when is it heresy to believe one has the very words of God accurately and perfectly in their own language?
It becomes heresy when one still believes and advocates something that's CLEARLY WRONG. If you had the very words of God, you'd have Hebrew, Aramaic, & Greek copies, and maybe proto-Hebrew or ancient Egyptian, whatever language(s) Moses used.
Also, do you believe one can have the very words of God accurately and perfectly in their own language?
Yes, if one's own language is the same language the writers of Scripture wrote in. Otherwise, we have only a translation. The real question is:"Can and does God cause His word to appear in our languages?" The answer:YES! And He does it AS HE CHOOSES, whether WE like His ways or not!
Michelle, you've said on several occasions that you're not KJVO. Could you please tell us the name(s) of any other Bible version(s) you recommend?
It becomes heresy when one still believes and advocates something that's CLEARLY WRONG. If you had the very words of God, you'd have Hebrew, Aramaic, & Greek copies, and maybe proto-Hebrew or ancient Egyptian, whatever language(s) Moses used.
Also, do you believe one can have the very words of God accurately and perfectly in their own language?
Yes, if one's own language is the same language the writers of Scripture wrote in. Otherwise, we have only a translation. The real question is:"Can and does God cause His word to appear in our languages?" The answer:YES! And He does it AS HE CHOOSES, whether WE like His ways or not!
Michelle, you've said on several occasions that you're not KJVO. Could you please tell us the name(s) of any other Bible version(s) you recommend?
--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We do have the origionals,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No we don't.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
for if we didn't, there would be no reason to have them in the first place and no reason for God to give us warning of adding to/taking away from his words.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The original recipients of the Book of Revelation had access to the original Book of Revelation, or at least one of the seven churches had it and the others had copies and/or they passed it around.
We do not have the originals they have been lost in antiquity. The seven churches of the Revelation did not preserve the original.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is your understanding of eternal, and preserved?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you believe that the Bible/scriptures that you read, understand, apply to your life, preach and teach are what God origionally said?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If they are faithful to the original language manuscripts I do.
--------------------------------------------------
That it quite funny, but sad at the same time. I have the book of Revelation and have studied it, and continue to study it, and is is the very same words that were given to John and the seven churches, only in my English language. It is sad you do not also believe this, even when you have it evidenced right before your very eyes.
How then can you now tell if you do not have the origional copies to go by? You cannot. You claim we do not have the origional words of God, so therefore, how do you know and trust your bible to be those very words of God? You have just admitted that you do not have the very words of God, by stating we don't have the origionals. If the copy of the origional was accurately and perfectly copied, would they also be God's origional words? If those words were then translated into another language accurately and perfectly, would they also be God's origional words?
--------------------------------------------------
Psalm 119:89 LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
We don't live in the eternal state yet, therefore His Words have been given to us on earth via a progressive revelation in the time continuum that we live in.
Only heaven, the dwelling place of Our Father can hold His eternal Word from eternity past to eternity to come.
--------------------------------------------------
So are you now claiming that God has not given us his eternal words of truth? He has given us his words, and maybe he hasn't given us all his words, but he has given us all he wills for us to have in this life, on this earth, and he also has the power to preserve them here for us as He has also told us. What good then would his words be to us? Your logic in this makes no sense and is in total contradiction to what God's word has said concerning them for us. Can God settle something in heaven, that he also has settled on earth? And yes, only God our Father has the power to preserve his words, and he can and has done it also here on earth for us. This time continuum you speak of has no bearing regarding this issue and is irrelevant.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We do have the origionals,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No we don't.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
for if we didn't, there would be no reason to have them in the first place and no reason for God to give us warning of adding to/taking away from his words.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The original recipients of the Book of Revelation had access to the original Book of Revelation, or at least one of the seven churches had it and the others had copies and/or they passed it around.
We do not have the originals they have been lost in antiquity. The seven churches of the Revelation did not preserve the original.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is your understanding of eternal, and preserved?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you believe that the Bible/scriptures that you read, understand, apply to your life, preach and teach are what God origionally said?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If they are faithful to the original language manuscripts I do.
--------------------------------------------------
That it quite funny, but sad at the same time. I have the book of Revelation and have studied it, and continue to study it, and is is the very same words that were given to John and the seven churches, only in my English language. It is sad you do not also believe this, even when you have it evidenced right before your very eyes.
How then can you now tell if you do not have the origional copies to go by? You cannot. You claim we do not have the origional words of God, so therefore, how do you know and trust your bible to be those very words of God? You have just admitted that you do not have the very words of God, by stating we don't have the origionals. If the copy of the origional was accurately and perfectly copied, would they also be God's origional words? If those words were then translated into another language accurately and perfectly, would they also be God's origional words?
--------------------------------------------------
Psalm 119:89 LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
We don't live in the eternal state yet, therefore His Words have been given to us on earth via a progressive revelation in the time continuum that we live in.
Only heaven, the dwelling place of Our Father can hold His eternal Word from eternity past to eternity to come.
--------------------------------------------------
So are you now claiming that God has not given us his eternal words of truth? He has given us his words, and maybe he hasn't given us all his words, but he has given us all he wills for us to have in this life, on this earth, and he also has the power to preserve them here for us as He has also told us. What good then would his words be to us? Your logic in this makes no sense and is in total contradiction to what God's word has said concerning them for us. Can God settle something in heaven, that he also has settled on earth? And yes, only God our Father has the power to preserve his words, and he can and has done it also here on earth for us. This time continuum you speak of has no bearing regarding this issue and is irrelevant.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
--------------------------------------------------
Still, this does not support single translationism. Interestingly, however, the mention of "jots" and "tittles" would imply just the opposite, since non-Hebrew translations con't contain jots and tittles. They're characters exclusive to Hebrew composition.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you understand the scriptures? Do you understand what Jesus was saying in this passage of scripture? Do you understand that Jesus was telling us how important and true every word of God is, even to the very jots and tittles of the words? And if anything, this passage also gives credence to the Hebrew scriptures, and not this man made myth of the pre-christ greek old testament that many falsely assume Jesus quoted from and the apostles taught from.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Still, this does not support single translationism. Interestingly, however, the mention of "jots" and "tittles" would imply just the opposite, since non-Hebrew translations con't contain jots and tittles. They're characters exclusive to Hebrew composition.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you understand the scriptures? Do you understand what Jesus was saying in this passage of scripture? Do you understand that Jesus was telling us how important and true every word of God is, even to the very jots and tittles of the words? And if anything, this passage also gives credence to the Hebrew scriptures, and not this man made myth of the pre-christ greek old testament that many falsely assume Jesus quoted from and the apostles taught from.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Trotter
<img src =/6412.jpg>
I have not read all of the thread. I was trying to catch up and get ready for VBS when this jumped out at me. If it has been answered, oh well.
By my actions? Excuse my indignation (forget righteous on this one). Listen. If I didn't know what you were really saying, I'd be really, really ticked. But I know that by 'word of God' you mean the King James. And I do love it. BUT (see if you can catch this now) IT IS NOT THE ONLY TRANSLATION OF THE WORD OF GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!
Revere it? I respect it, but I revere God alone.
Those that have altered or questioned? Please, spare me the tears. I have not altered it, nor have any of the modern scholars and their work altered it. It's mistakes and additions stand on their own!
michelle, I love you as a sister in Christ, because I know that you are. But you are so deluded [snipped by moderator]that you will not see.
I love the KJV. But it is not perfect. The texts that it is translated from are not perfect. The men who translated it were not perfect. Nor are any others who translate today, or the manuscripts used today, or any translation available today.
So, what is my inerrant, preserved word of God? ALL OF THEM!!!!! I do not have the authority to pick and choose, nor the divine nature to judge which is or isn't.
We have the word of God in many different manuscripts (of which all disagree in some way, shape, form, or fashion). We have the word of God in many different translations (of which all disagree in some way, shape, form, or fashion). I do not have, nor do you or anyone else, the divine authority to tell you or me which translation is the "perfect" one. There isn't one.
If you feel that there is, fine. Keep it to yourself, or at least quit trying to accuse me of not loving the word of God, or the King James for that matter.
[ June 08, 2004, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: Christ4Kildare ]
I do more than claim to, sister. I live it, love it, and , by His calling, preach it.
By my actions? Excuse my indignation (forget righteous on this one). Listen. If I didn't know what you were really saying, I'd be really, really ticked. But I know that by 'word of God' you mean the King James. And I do love it. BUT (see if you can catch this now) IT IS NOT THE ONLY TRANSLATION OF THE WORD OF GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!
Revere it? I respect it, but I revere God alone.
Those that have altered or questioned? Please, spare me the tears. I have not altered it, nor have any of the modern scholars and their work altered it. It's mistakes and additions stand on their own!
michelle, I love you as a sister in Christ, because I know that you are. But you are so deluded [snipped by moderator]that you will not see.
I love the KJV. But it is not perfect. The texts that it is translated from are not perfect. The men who translated it were not perfect. Nor are any others who translate today, or the manuscripts used today, or any translation available today.
So, what is my inerrant, preserved word of God? ALL OF THEM!!!!! I do not have the authority to pick and choose, nor the divine nature to judge which is or isn't.
We have the word of God in many different manuscripts (of which all disagree in some way, shape, form, or fashion). We have the word of God in many different translations (of which all disagree in some way, shape, form, or fashion). I do not have, nor do you or anyone else, the divine authority to tell you or me which translation is the "perfect" one. There isn't one.
If you feel that there is, fine. Keep it to yourself, or at least quit trying to accuse me of not loving the word of God, or the King James for that matter.
[ June 08, 2004, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: Christ4Kildare ]
--------------------------------------------------
It becomes heresy when one still believes and advocates something that's CLEARLY WRONG. If you had the very words of God, you'd have Hebrew, Aramaic, & Greek copies, and maybe proto-Hebrew or ancient Egyptian, whatever language(s) Moses used.
--------------------------------------------------
I have the very words of God, and every single one of them as He has promised to preserve and has told us we are to live by. I am not Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic speaking, but I believe God when he has said that I shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. This includes my own language, otherwise I would not be able to live by every word of God, and God would then be found to be a liar, to which he cannot do.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
It becomes heresy when one still believes and advocates something that's CLEARLY WRONG. If you had the very words of God, you'd have Hebrew, Aramaic, & Greek copies, and maybe proto-Hebrew or ancient Egyptian, whatever language(s) Moses used.
--------------------------------------------------
I have the very words of God, and every single one of them as He has promised to preserve and has told us we are to live by. I am not Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic speaking, but I believe God when he has said that I shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. This includes my own language, otherwise I would not be able to live by every word of God, and God would then be found to be a liar, to which he cannot do.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Yep, it has been done by MV's, inlcuding the KJV, which is modern enough in language to call it a modern version. Inserting "without a cause" into Matthew 5:22, and changing "May it not be" into "God forbid" in Romans 3:4 and in at least 10 other NT passages are valid examples.
=-------------------------------------------------
So, what is my inerrant, preserved word of God? ALL OF THEM!!!!! I do not have the authority to pick and choose, nor the divine nature to judge which is or isn't.
--------------------------------------------------
If you truly believe this, this really saddens my heart. It really does. You just better make sure then, that you have enouph money to purchase them all, if you believe that all are God's words, for they all differ one from the other. It saddens me, that you do not believe that God has the power nor ability to, nor has preserved his words of truth, and every single one of them for you in your language. You would not have had to come to this thought of which one shall I choose, if the advent of these mv's did not come out. God already provided his words for us in our language, and we need no other translation. It is evident that the advent of the mv's was and is the work of none other than Satan himself. You can go on and continue to condone those things that he is using to keep God's people from the whole counsel of God, and to put them in this position of doubt in the first place, but this is not the blame of those who are only looking out for thier fellow bretheren/sisters and warning them of those things that are wrong. It is the classic shooting of the messenger. You don't want to heed the warnings, that is fine. Only the Lord will convict your heart of the truth regarding this issue. I can't do this. I am only giving the message.
You accuse me of idolatry. How is believing and claiming that we have the very words of God and every single one of them idolatry? Go back and read my very first posts.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
So, what is my inerrant, preserved word of God? ALL OF THEM!!!!! I do not have the authority to pick and choose, nor the divine nature to judge which is or isn't.
--------------------------------------------------
If you truly believe this, this really saddens my heart. It really does. You just better make sure then, that you have enouph money to purchase them all, if you believe that all are God's words, for they all differ one from the other. It saddens me, that you do not believe that God has the power nor ability to, nor has preserved his words of truth, and every single one of them for you in your language. You would not have had to come to this thought of which one shall I choose, if the advent of these mv's did not come out. God already provided his words for us in our language, and we need no other translation. It is evident that the advent of the mv's was and is the work of none other than Satan himself. You can go on and continue to condone those things that he is using to keep God's people from the whole counsel of God, and to put them in this position of doubt in the first place, but this is not the blame of those who are only looking out for thier fellow bretheren/sisters and warning them of those things that are wrong. It is the classic shooting of the messenger. You don't want to heed the warnings, that is fine. Only the Lord will convict your heart of the truth regarding this issue. I can't do this. I am only giving the message.
You accuse me of idolatry. How is believing and claiming that we have the very words of God and every single one of them idolatry? Go back and read my very first posts.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle