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Featured Is death God’s punishment for sin….,

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by canadyjd, Sep 13, 2023.

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  1. Death is the consequence of sin

    9 vote(s)
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  2. Death is the punishment of God for sin

    3 vote(s)
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  3. I am not sure

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  1. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you on that. The only thing I would say is we all die physically because we are in a sense "in Adam" and in addition all of us have sinned individually too. And God has chosen not to remove those original punishments (consequences) stated in Genesis 3, even for those who are saved and become believers. But I agree with you that we who are believers are definitely saved from the second death.
     
  2. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I can agree that we are all in a sense "in Adam" as far as he is the progenitor of us all. I run into a problem when one says that we are condemned because of Adam's sin since the bible is clear that it is the soul that sins that shall die Eze 18:20 and further "The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son."

    While physical death is a consequence of Adam's sin our spiritual death is on us as individuals. That is why babies and those that do not know right from wrong are not condemned.
     
  3. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    You said if a human being led a sinless life, they would still die.

    That is contrary to scripture. Scripture makes a direct connection between sin and death. There is the cause and effect.

    The OP ask if death is the consequence of sin or is it the punishment of God?

    By your statement, “ a person living a sinless life would still die”, you seem to be saying it is neither.

    Death then, is neither consequence nor punishment, it is just something that happens that is out of God’s control.

    That is a very humanistic worldview.

    peace to you
     
  4. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    You bring up good points in this. Part of it is easy since the fact is we that have lived any period of life have indeed actually sinned on our own. The idea of being in Adam and included in his guilt and so on is very difficult to me too and the smart guys all seem to have a slightly different take on it as well so I don't feel too bad.

    This is where you get into some of the cosmic aspects of Christs coming and how we can be found "in Him" as opposed to being represented by Adam. Good commentaries on the 5th Chapter of Romans helped me there. I had trouble accepting it too until I understood that this is really a wonderful deal for us, who can be new creatures in Christ as opposed to being "in Adam". It probably does require one to believe in imputed guilt and imputed righteousness but it certainly does not require you to be a Calvinist. These are natural doctrines for anyone who believes in the idea of being born again or believes that anything supernatural actually takes place when a person comes to Christ.
     
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  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The wages, consequences, of sin is death. Death results in termination of life. Humanity is spiritually dead both because we were made "sinners" (forfeiters of fellowship with God) and due to any sin we have committed. This consequence is specified in Isaiah 59:2. It says we are separated from God due to the consequence of God being holy and sin rendering humans unholy. Thus this consequence of sin can become an "eternal punishment." (Matthew 25:46)

    1) Eternal separation from God is a result or consequence of sin.
    2) Eternal separation can be said to be eternal punishment.
    3) Does it become "punishment" only if a consequence of our individual sin, or just the consequence of Adam's original sin?
    4) Matthew 25:36 contrasts life with punishment, thus our initial state of separation (being spiritually dead) seems to qualify as punishment. But the "punishment" is as a consequence of Adam's sin, rather than as a consequence of his descendants doing anything good or bad.

    If a spiritually dead human dies before doing anything good or bad, would the person suffer torment? Nope.
     
    #25 Van, Sep 15, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2023
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  6. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    1] did you note the conditional clause "if"
    2] man dies as a consequence of the sin of Adam. Read Gen 3:19 the first death.
    3] Romans 5:12-14 provides your answer " Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses" Natural death, the first death, is not the punishment of God.
    4] the direct connection between sin and death is to the second death which is the punishment of God
    John 3:18 "... but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    As I said before "The consequence of Adam's sin was the first death, the punishment for our sin is the second death."
     
  7. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Where we differ is that you seem to hold to imputed guilt from Adam. That we are guilty of Adams sin, I do not as the bible points out that the son is not held guilty for the fathers sin. Now as to the imputed righteousness of Christ that only comes about when one freely trust in the finished work of Christ Jesus. God views those that are born again as if we are righteous not that we are actually such as we still are in our sinful bodies.
     
  8. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    I certainly balk at it too. But in light of the gospel and the fact that in a similar way we can as believers come to a place of being "in Christ" - then I find it acceptable and even a good deal for us. I think that is what Romans 5 is talking about.
    I think that is a good way to state this in a precise manner.
     
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  9. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Exactly how is it possible for a spiritually dead person not to sin?

    Again, death is not just something that happens regardless of sin. Scripture clearly makes a direct connection between death and sin.

    It could be a consequence od sun. It might be the punishment of God. I am still processing the idea that physical death could be both consequence and punishment.

    What physical death isn’t is just something that happens apart from sin.

    That is a secular humanistic doctrine contrary to scripture.

    Peace to you
     
  10. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    The consequence of Adam’s sin is not just “death”, but it is that all sin which leads to death, both physical and spiritual.

    Your statement that if a person led a sinless life, they would still die is contrary to scripture.

    peace to you
     
  11. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    @canadyjd you are depending on your Calvinism not the bible for you answers. The consequence of Adams sin that we all suffer is the first death. Those that do not trust in God for their salvation will suffer the punishment of the second death.

    What Paul says here should help clear things up for you:

    Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam

    The bible is clear that it is “the soul who sins that shall die” Eze 18:20 and further "The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son."

    While physical death is a consequence of Adam's sin our spiritual death is on us as individuals. That is why babies and those that do not know right from wrong are not condemned.

    Notice that God told Adam “for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Gen 2:17 and he did, spiritually.
    There was now a separation between Adam and God. He would be judged for his sin. The second death.

    Then we are told of a further judgement placed on Adam and Eve. Gen 3:19 “In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return." That is physical death. The first death.

    Spiritual death is not the same as physical death. While all men will suffer the first death it is only the lost that will suffer the second. Once you understand that you will have a better understanding of salvation through faith in God.
     
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  12. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    The Bible teaches that physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body:

    James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    That separation of the spirit from the body is not some mechanistic, automated, natural process that impersonally happens on its own. God takes away the spirits of living beings so that they die and return to dust:

    Psalm 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

    Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    Daniel 5:23 But hast lifted up thyself against the Lord of heaven; and they have brought the vessels of his house before thee, and thou, and thy lords, thy wives, and thy concubines, have drunk wine in them; and thou hast praised the gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood, and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know: and the God in whose hand thy breath is, and whose are all thy ways, hast thou not glorified:

    Luke 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

    Physical death is God's punishment for sin.
     
  13. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    If death is the punishment for sin but sin was not held against man before the law then why did they die?

    Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam

    The first death, physical death, is the consequence of Adams sin. All mankind will suffer this.

    You said "The Bible teaches that physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body:" but is the spirit judged at that time? NO. The spirit is judged at the "great white throne" Revelation 20:11-15.

    The second death, the punishment for sin, is for "anyone not found written in the Book of Life" and we are told what the punishment is. They are "cast into the lake of fire."
     
  14. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Just trying to understand your reasoning.

    1. You said if someone led a sinless life they would still die. Why? Because of Adam’s sun?

    You then quote Ezekiel 18:30 which says the son shall not bear the guilt of the father…

    That is a contradiction in your reasoning.

    2. You quoted Romans 5:13 that says without the (Mosaic) law, sin is not imputed. Whatever else that may mean, it doesn’t mean God didn’t consider “sin” to be sin, prior to the Law nor does it mean there wasn’t consequence or punishment for sin.

    Scripture very clearly state that sin entered by Adam and the consequence of death came to anll mankind because all sin.

    There is nothing uniquely “Calvinistic” about recognizing scripture makes a direct connection between sin and death; both physical and spiritual.

    Your statement that if someone led a sinless life they would still die is contrary to scripture and based on a secular humanistic worldview.

    peace to you
     
  15. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    The fact that you can not or actually will not see the difference between physical death as a consequence of Adams sin and spiritual death as a punishment for each persons sin speaks more of your loyalty to calvinism rather than to the biblical text.

    We are sinners because we sin, each person is judged for their own sin not someone else's. I am no more judged for your sins than I am for Adam's.
    Actually it was this verse that I quoted:
    Eze 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

    Adam sinned when he violated the command of God and ate of the tree and sin entered the world. The consequence of that sin was
    1] Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.
    2] Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you
    3] By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground
    4] For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.

    The punishment for Adam's sin, if he had not repented, would not be experienced for many years.
    Gen 5:5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died.
    The punishment for sin:
    Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Everyone dies that is the consequence of Adams's sin, first death. Those that do not trust in Christ will suffer the punishment for their sin, second death.
     
  16. Scripture More Accurately

    Scripture More Accurately Well-Known Member

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    Your understanding about physical death does not account for many passages that say that people died physically because God slew them for their own sin(s) or for the sins of others.

    David's first child through Bathsheba did not die physically because of Adam's sin--the Bible explicitly says that he died physically because of God's punishment on David for his sin with Bathsheba.

    Nadab and Abihu did not die physically because of Adam's sin--the Bible explicitly says that God slew them because they offered strange fire on the altar.

    There are many other similar passages that teach the same truth.

    Furthermore, Jesus taught that right after the rich man died physically and was buried, he was in torments because he was experiencing God's punishment; his punishment began immediately after his death and is not something that only will happen after the Great White Throne Judgment.
     
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...that's @Silverhair's obsession. to stamp out 'Calvinism'. No matter what the scripture says, Calvinism bad. It's his mission in life, kill Calvinism.
     
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  18. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Why would any sensible Christian not want to rid Christianity of a philosophy that came from a pagan base. The shame of it is that so many well meaning Christians have fallen for this false theology. Or perhaps it is the version of God that they say determines all things that has blinded their eyes to the truth for a time.

    All I can do is point out the errors and pray that God will open their eyes to the truth of scripture.
     
  19. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    The fact that God stepped in and took their lives does not alter the reality that the vast majority of people in history have not had God step in that way. But all people die whether God steps in or not. Physical death is the consequence of Adam's sin or perhaps you know someone besides Enoch that is not under the sentence of death?
     
  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    So, I hit the nail on the head, Silverhair is just another dime a dozen 'Calvinist slayer', one of many such that has appeared on this board. Nothing unique about you or your vain humanistic reasonings, and, there's absolutely no way you're going to eradicate the message of God's Sovereign Grace, it's here to stay, it is the Good News God has for us. Dream on, shallow man.
     
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