Actually, what Spurgeon was dealing with was not historic (or classic) Calvinism, but rather hypercalvinsm: a heresy that arose among the Particular Baptist in England in the middle of the 1700s. Historic calvinism has always stood over against hypecalvinism.
Is Faith Necessary for Salvation?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Baptist_Pastor/Theologian, Nov 12, 2006.
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First of all as a moderator I would imagine that you would refrain from personal attacks. You have no right to question my integrity based on my call name. I have a desire to be both a pastor and a theologian. Truth be told to be called a pastor is far more significant than a theologian. Everyone has a theology of some kind, so I guess we are all theologians, yet not everyone is called to be a pastor. So your personal attacks against me based on the title theologian are really unwarranted and only reveal a certain insecurity on your part.
You lack a certain precision in your view of the revelation of God. By quoting the following you are only making a case for general revelation:
That is why Paul wrote in Romans 7:
As far as you suggestion that I did not deal with Titus 2:11, I think I did. By no means does it teach that Jesus appeared to all men everywhere at all times, that is over reading what is being said. Any time you read that God loves all men or that he desires to see all men saved or in this case that Christ has appeared to all men then you have to interpret what that means. All can mean everyone at all times but if it does then you just became a universalist. Do you believe that everyone will go to heaven? You must if you think that all means everyone at all times. Is that what 1 Timothy 2 teaches?
1. Jesus is the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but by Him.
2. There is no one who seeks God.
3. Therefore apart from hearing the Gospel those who lived and died without believing in Jesus were not able to have faith in God.
4. There did have sufficient revelation to convict them of evil.
5. They are without excuse for their evil.
6. The world therefore needs missionaries. -
So the connection is less direct than it is in your statement; yet, in the end, the light of natural revelation leads to the condemnation of all people. In regard to the state of humankind, that is what the light of creation accomplishes. This part of Romans one is helping to establish the truth of Romans 3 that "all have sinned," and that all (Jews, who had more revelation than simply the light of creation; and Gentiles, who had only the light of creation) were "under the condemnation of sin," and "the whole world can be held accountable to God."
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Spurgeon stated specifically in a sermon dealing with Jesus dieing for ALL mankind in a text that is stated by Calvinism to mean just different kinds. Spurgeon states that (paraphrase) Though some Calvinists of old have tried to make the text say what it does not say "HERE". I will never allow my theology to read into the bible what I don't like. I can copy, paste it if you like.
Note: He was not a general attonement person. -
PrmtvBptst1832 Active MemberSite Supporter
The heathen, infants, and idiots are all excluded from the hope of salvation if faith is indispensably necessary in order to salvation.
"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God." -1 John 5:1
The phrase "is born" is perfect passive indicative. This very clearly teaches us that the one who believes that Jesus is the Christ has already been born of God. Question: If a man has been born of God, is he a child of God or not? If so, he was a child of God BEFORE he believed. -
2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Unless I'm mistaken, Peter is saying God the Father gave us Christ the son who revealed to us the things necessary to have eternal life. He has also given us the means to be "Godly" or righteous. Again, his name is Jesus.
Yes, Jesus is the Word that became flesh but there is no way he could reveal to man all knowledge and wisdom of all the ages. Knowledge is still being revealed to man and God has known it all along. This will happen in the future also. Jesus was often frustrated just trying to get man to understand one concept like faith. See the graveside of Laz. where is says Jesus wept.
I read your post and can say you are very logical. Sometimes too logical because God's logic conflicts with the logic of the world. This is what drove Jesus to say to you (our logic) this may seem impossible but to me, all things are possible. Don't let your logic get in the way of your understanding of God. -
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Walk with me to revelations, John is in heaven and could find words to describe the ground on which he stood. To put it best he could he said the streets appeared as transparent gold. Transparent gold? What does that mean? Gold that is see through?
My point is John saw heaven and could not fathom words to even tell us what he saw. How could we who have yet to see heaven comprehend Gods dwelling place? I don't believe man is capable of fully comprehending God so revealed to us just enough that we might believe and live holy. And we argue over that. -
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I like what Charles Hodge an avowed Calvinist said,
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I want to make sure I understand the last quote from Hodge. I doubt that I do. He is saying that there are elect people in Hell who died prematurely??
Or God makes sure they don't die till they do believe because of the Covenant? -
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PrmtvBptst1832 Active MemberSite Supporter
What is the meaning of 1 John 5:1? Do we believe in order to become children of God or do we believe because we are children of God?
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WHile I agree Charles Hodges was a Great and Godfearing man I do not think he was right on everything he wrote. And yes, I dispute differing things there in.
I even spent about 45 minutes writing a very good refute against some of it but I decided against it and you know what I realized at the end- It matters little. We do not (within the baptist realm that is) differ on the Truths of scripture but the mechanics of those truths. I can post just as many refutes to Cals 'L' in TULIP by other Cals of the 4 point persuasion and non-Cals too. Lets us look at scriptures for ourselves and sharpen one another though encouragement and friendly banter to know His Word better. We can use others works, yes but they are not our own works and therefore not our understanding of that faith we hold so dear. If we understand it properly we can states pretty closely to the way they do.
What I'm saying is that when ANY person sets down to show what scripture is speaking of he will automatically look at scripture through their personal theological bent. Yes, we must utilize the tools of theology but we must be true to scriptures and not allow theology to dictate scripture but let scripture reveal itself throught the Spirit of the living God proving ALL doctrine with Grace and Truth TO us as we seek Him.
On a side note with regard to his (Charles Hodges) last line about limited attonment:
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Good points Joshua.
But I think what she meant was that no one goes to Hell unless they have rejected Christ and THUS deserves to go there. I think her whole deserves hinges on the believe issue and if they will not believe they deserve their choice.
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