NOt the employees fault GM is failing. It is GM's fault that GM is failing! Went to the autoshow Last Friday (had the chance to go before it was open to the public) and it didn't take long to realize after looking at all the car displays,cars,and new cars coming out from the car companies to see why GM is in trouble. Theirs was the least interesting of all.
It is also the market. You can't compete with 3rd world countries for wages. Trust me your jobs are heading there too. Japan has national health care, the car companies don't have too foot that bill. Now what happens here in the old US of A it alot of envy. I don't have healthcare or the benefits of union workers so they must be evil! I am surprised at many christian brothers who instead of saying "great you have a good job and great benefits" its "no the union is evil and you make too much yada yada."
Is General Motors going bankrupt?
Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by Ben W, Jan 17, 2006.
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How calloused? Indeed. How callous of union workers to selfishly inflate the price of the things we pay for. How callous of unions to chase good jobs out of our country before our children get to hold them for the sake of their own new boat or fancy car. How callous of unions who for the sake of class envy have robbed their neighbor. [/QB][/QUOTE]
What a load of crap. 100% ignorance. YOu have all you life to be the stupidest man alive..........take aday off! -
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The Corvette could help GM, not through direct sales, but through image. F1 racing costs about $4million/weekend to race (and that was several years ago), but the worldwide sales for the sponsor would increase by $1billion for a win. Although the Mercedes you buy off the showroom floor has very little in common with the F1 car, their sales would increase when they won.
So, if everyone wants a Vette, but can't afford it, they might buy an Impala or something. -
Two interesting facts,
1, Currently the most profitable car company in the world is Porsche. That became so after they hired their head engineer from the 1980's to be their managing director and they went to Retro Styling their new model and as a result, sales went ballistic. People want Retro - new modelled on old, styles of cars.
2, The current most improved company is Nissan - Renault which are one and the same firm. They trade as two seperate firms yet part share components. They are out of debt, and now Nissan are in a situation where there engineers are able to draw on the technology from the Renault Formula one team, and if the latest Nissan Skyline is anything to go by, they seem to be making quite the job of it.
General Motors need to be in Formula One if they are to survive. I am told that their main problem is competing against car companies who operate with government supplied health care for their workers which greatly reduces the cost.
GM have also dragged their heels considerably in Reserch and Development of new technology, and that is starting to bite now. look at what Toyota, Nissan and Honda are doing with Hybrid Cars that are into series no 3. GM can do that, yet they have to hire the right people and not be afraid to be told what they are to make by the oil companies - ineffecent cars that run on pump grade unleaded only. -
How calloused!
No wonder liberals like me often despise positions taken by conservatives. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes. The same unions who gave us high priced cars so that someone could sit all day and watch a robot place rivets. And yes, the same unions who have nearly chased heavy manufacturing out of the US by their unreasonable demands and extortion.
How calloused? Indeed. How callous of union workers to selfishly inflate the price of the things we pay for. How callous of unions to chase good jobs out of our country before our children get to hold them for the sake of their own new boat or fancy car. How callous of unions who for the sake of class envy have robbed their neighbor. </font>[/QUOTE]This is just the type of bull I would expect from a hyper-conservative. What a crock! -
I hold us all responsible - consumers and suppliers - unions and management - citizens and government - for the problems we're facing in many industries.
Unions are far from sinless. They were organized to provide for collective bargaining of wages and working conditions that could not be accomplished one on one. They helped make some very positive changes in our country that have benefited all of us. We should be thankful for that because, without them, we'd all be working a lot harder for a lot less. But, just as they've done good, they've also done bad. They pushed for ridiculous work rules to "protect" their jobs that ultimately hurt themselves. Anyone who's worked with it knows both sides of this.
Management is far for sinless. On the positive side the human desire to make money and provide capital for business investments has led to a lot of jobs for a lot of people. People with money provide those investments. We should be thankful for that! They don't want to pay one cent more - in wages, benefits, or anything else than they have to - just like most of when we go shopping. There have been some "compassionate" management over the years that truly treated their workers fairly. Today, I see far less of that and I see a very large and increasing gap between the executive compensation and the "worker's" compensation. It's not illegal but it sure doesn't seem right.
Companies, for the large part, are owned by individual investors who have voting power by their stock ownership. Want they want is maximum capital growth and solid returns. Given the choice they'll trade solid long term returns for maximum short term capital growth. That short term growth can be attained by drastic cuts in costs - labor, benefits, services, maintenance, etc. - that don't immediately wreck everything. Executives that makes these things happen are in high demand. Investors love them because it makes them rich. Greed is at work here. People don't care long term what happens.
Consumers are very fickle! They'll buy the lowest price highest quality product regardless of any perceived loyalty to their neighbors. Everyone is looking for the best deal. Foreign vehicles offered better price and better quality for a sufficient period of time to get a stronghold on the market. Don't count on that staying permanent because once they've got you the price goes up and the service goes down.
Manufacturers have increasingly focused on marketing the gloss and not the substance of products in America because that's want sells. Advertisement rarely focuses on the true attributes or merits of products but uses other attributes - status, sex, power, etc. - to sell the product. Why do we pay so much for style and flash of products? This appeals to people but it saps energy from building products that really are better and really have functionality.
Government burdens manufacturing with a host of tax rules - income, inventory, fees, etc. - and regulations that sap a tremendous amount of energy in business. Decisions about investments have to be made based on tax implications rather than true business decisions. Inventory has to be minimized so it's not taxed with leads to just in time manufacturing which means limited stock of product and replacement parts. Regulations, intended for good causes, are a huge burden imposed on America's own that importers don't necessarily have to contend with. The intents are often good but the implementation is often ridiculous and centers around paperwork verses reality of processes. Most capital investments in industry these days are for environmental projects.
A large portion of our productivity energies is absorbed by non-productive leeches. These leeches result in the high cost of liability insurance, the proliferation of regulations, and the decline of common sense. Fewer and fewer can afford to take reasonable risks to attain reasonable gains. Those that profit from this don't add any real value in goods or services. They just take a cut from the fruits of the labor of those who do. Just take a look at what businesses are the most profitable for the work they perform. -
Ben, I think F1 would be a bad fit for GM at this time. But their biggest difficulty as I see it is design. Other than the Corvette, they have ugly cars, and I see beautiful cars coming from I think Taiwan, or Korea, that are a pleasure to look at. Just look at that horizontal simulated chrome strip across the back of the Impala, (I think)which is so ugly and contrast tht with the same thing form overseas that places the strip far lower, with great effect. GM needs help in design. And of course union reform.
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That is the stupidity of the American companies. People are tired of being stranded on the highway and a vehicle which squeaks and you have to take it in the shop regularly. Because I am a woodworker I buy mostly foreign made hand tools because the tools are simply not made here. At one time America made excellent hand tools but not now. A friend of mine saw a nice hand tool I had and wanted me to find out if I could get him one. I went to the same company (Record) and the company was sold to an American company (Rubbermaid). I contacted the headquarters and that is a discontinued item. That tol has bene made for over 100 years and now the Amercian company has discontiuned the product. There is not one company making that same product now because an American company bought a foreign English company and killed the product.
Government burdens manufacturing with a host of tax rules - income, inventory, fees, etc. - and regulations that sap a tremendous amount of energy in business. Decisions about investments have to be made based on tax implications rather than true business decisions. Inventory has to be minimized so it's not taxed with leads to just in time manufacturing which means limited stock of product and replacement parts. Regulations, intended for good causes, are a huge burden imposed on America's own that importers don't necessarily have to contend with. The intents are often good but the implementation is often ridiculous and centers around paperwork verses reality of processes.Click to expand...
My brother who worked for seevral different companies told me that he made more working for Toyota because everything fits welll and the parts are of high quality.
A large portion of our productivity energies is absorbed by non-productive leeches. These leeches result in the high cost of liability insurance, the proliferation of regulations, and the decline of common sense. Fewer and fewer can afford to take reasonable risks to attain reasonable gains. Those that profit from this don't add any real value in goods or services. They just take a cut from the fruits of the labor of those who do. Just take a look at what businesses are the most profitable for the work they perform.Click to expand...
Planned obsolence bites you eventually.Click to expand...Click to expand... -
Bro. James Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
This is another example of the total depravity of man at every level. We are corrupted by greed and the love of money on a global scale.
The pervasiveness can be seen at every level from heads of state all the way down through union management. Are we going to blame the ones near the bottom?
We all need to take a good look in the mirror and do some serious introspection.
Selah,
Bro. James -
Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
Click to expand...
How calloused? Indeed. How callous of union workers to selfishly inflate the price of the things we pay for. How callous of unions to chase good jobs out of our country before our children get to hold them for the sake of their own new boat or fancy car. How callous of unions who for the sake of class envy have robbed their neighbor. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]What a load of crap. 100% ignorance. YOu have all you life to be the stupidest man alive..........take aday off! [/QB][/QUOTE]
What an informed, substance filled response.
Stupidest man alive? How kind and Christian of you... Why? Because I don't like to see people make 2 or 3 times what their job is actually worth? Because I don't like seeing socialists dictate to property owners what they can and cannot do with their businesses?
Show my ignorance if you can. I know that unions did some good in their early years in particular on safe working conditions. OTOH, I know they have done incredible harm in the last 30-40 years and have very frequently been corrupt.
I KNOW that they prevented US businesses from possessing the flexibility and nimbleness that our foreign competitors have had... and that is a very large part of why heavy manufacturing has left the US. Light mfg could relocate within the states to places where they wouldn't have to deal with unions... and people actually appreciated the company for giving them an opportunity.
"Ignorance"? Feel free to show more of yours. -
Originally posted by Terry_Herrington:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Terry_Herrington:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by fromtheright:
I hope not. Let the unions sink 'em.Click to expand...
How calloused!
No wonder liberals like me often despise positions taken by conservatives. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes. The same unions who gave us high priced cars so that someone could sit all day and watch a robot place rivets. And yes, the same unions who have nearly chased heavy manufacturing out of the US by their unreasonable demands and extortion.
How calloused? Indeed. How callous of union workers to selfishly inflate the price of the things we pay for. How callous of unions to chase good jobs out of our country before our children get to hold them for the sake of their own new boat or fancy car. How callous of unions who for the sake of class envy have robbed their neighbor. </font>[/QUOTE]This is just the type of bull I would expect from a hyper-conservative. What a crock! </font>[/QUOTE]Another response filled with all the substance a liberal can muster on the subject. :rolleyes: -
Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
Click to expand...
How calloused? Indeed. How callous of union workers to selfishly inflate the price of the things we pay for. How callous of unions to chase good jobs out of our country before our children get to hold them for the sake of their own new boat or fancy car. How callous of unions who for the sake of class envy have robbed their neighbor. </font>[/QUOTE]What a load of crap. 100% ignorance. YOu have all you life to be the stupidest man alive..........take aday off! [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]What an informed, substance filled response.
Stupidest man alive? How kind and Christian of you... Why? Because I don't like to see people make 2 or 3 times what their job is actually worth? Because I don't like seeing socialists dictate to property owners what they can and cannot do with their businesses?
Show my ignorance if you can. I know that unions did some good in their early years in particular on safe working conditions. OTOH, I know they have done incredible harm in the last 30-40 years and have very frequently been corrupt.
I KNOW that they prevented US businesses from possessing the flexibility and nimbleness that our foreign competitors have had... and that is a very large part of why heavy manufacturing has left the US. Light mfg could relocate within the states to places where they wouldn't have to deal with unions... and people actually appreciated the company for giving them an opportunity.
"Ignorance"? Feel free to show more of yours. [/QB][/QUOTE]
TOO busy showing yours. Maybe you would like to elabrate on your inane statements and prove how unions have done anything but look for decent wages. What an idiot. -
Speaking as a truck drive which takes loads into auto plants, you get in and out of non UAW plants faster and treated nicer than UAW plants. Now that Toyota Georgetown, Ky. is UAW they are not as fast or as nice as before.
I wouldn't guess what is the problem at GM, but i would say there is enough blame to go around. If management does as little as labor, they have mess on their hands, and the way labor talks management does not work at all and labor does all the work, they have a problem then. -
Bob I have heard that before but it was because they came at breaktime. Company could fix that by rotating drivers, fork truck drivers, or paying overtime. Not employees fault. In this case anyways.
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Originally posted by Dragoon68:
I hold us all responsible - consumers and suppliers - unions and management - citizens and government - for the problems we're facing in many industries.
Unions are far from sinless. They were organized to provide for collective bargaining of wages and working conditions that could not be accomplished one on one.Click to expand...
When unions began, they were a response to what amounted to slavery. Companies used debt and housing to trap people in subsistance living. It was wrong and should have been addressed as a slavery issue.
But a person's desire to work at a particular company at for a particular compensation DOES NOT constitute having a right to do so. It is their "right" and God given liberty to go work elsewhere or start their own company.
There is no legitimate moral basis for forcing a company to pay more for an employee's service than it is worth. That is exactly what unions have very frequently done.
They pushed for ridiculous work rules to "protect" their jobs that ultimately hurt themselves. Anyone who's worked with it knows both sides of this.Click to expand...
Today, I see far less of that and I see a very large and increasing gap between the executive compensation and the "worker's" compensation. It's not illegal but it sure doesn't seem right.Click to expand...
Consumers are very fickle! They'll buy the lowest price highest quality product regardless of any perceived loyalty to their neighbors.Click to expand...
That said, I have no intention of buying a GM vehicle. I have owned them and been burnt by lousy workmanship/design and poor customer service.Everyone is looking for the best deal.Click to expand...Foreign vehicles offered better price and better quality for a sufficient period of time to get a stronghold on the market. Don't count on that staying permanent because once they've got you the price goes up and the service goes down.Click to expand...
Most capital investments in industry these days are for environmental projects.Click to expand...
A large portion of our productivity energies is absorbed by non-productive leeches.Click to expand...
Oddly, the same liberals that claim to be on the side of the working man support the very unions, regulations, and tax system that has progressively put these working men out of work... I guess that gives liberals one more opportunity to play the hero.
What a cruel system... create a problem while fooling the people into thinking you are helping them then fool the same people into thinking the problem was caused by "business greed" and come to the rescue.
The only thing I can disagree with you on is the concept and premises behind collective bargaining/strikes/etc. The 'best' way to ensure equitable compensation is employee mobility between jobs... and we have plenty of that now. Two car companies operating without a trust in the same city will find the "right" level for employee pay.
I happen to believe in American ingenuity and competitiveness... unions and to a large degree, "Big Business", stifle those genuine American values. -
Bro. James Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
"Bless them that curse you"--it heaps coals on their heads.
Selah,
Bro. James -
TOO busy showing yours. Maybe you would like to elabrate on your inane statements and prove how unions have done anything but look for decent wages. What an idiot.Click to expand...
"Decent wages"? I'll give you an example of something quite a bit "more" than "decent wages".
A unionized printing press operator in the Chicago area could before, and in fewer cases now, can earn close to $100K per year... but neither domestic nor foreign competition will allow such an overpayment to exist. An even more skilled, non-union operator at another company will do the job for the "decent wage" of $50K. Further, their counterpart in China or India will do the job for a small fraction of either.
Don't even try to convince me that a UAW worker who does the minimum he can get by with but demands $35/hr and full benefits is just looking for a "decent wage".
A "decent wage" is one that rewards someone for what they do... not for having a union capable of shutting a company down in violation of legitimate property rights and freedoms. -
Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Bob I have heard that before but it was because they came at breaktime.Click to expand...
Some people are self-motivating and will do a good job on their own. But these are often discouraged by majorities who want to get the most money possible for the least amount of work. A job that can be done in 10 minutes can be made to fill an hour. Jobs that can be done by one... are done by 3.
The main difference is that unions often protect and even encourage this type of behavior as a means of protecting jobs and wages. Non-union companies that are well managed won't tolerate it. They will root out these bad attitudes and fire people if necessary.
Company could fix that by rotating drivers, fork truck drivers,Click to expand...or paying overtime. Not employees fault.Click to expand... -
"Because I don't like to see people make 2 or 3 times what their job is actually worth?"
The job is actually worth what the employer will acutally pay. An economic exchange will not occur unless both parties think they are improving their position over the alternatives.
Alaskan Air Lines has saved money by firing union workers? <G>
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