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Featured Is God the author of Evil/Sin?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Miss E, Jul 27, 2020.

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  1. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Saying the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity. And you trying to convince me that you and your Calvinist friends paint God as a God who picks and chooses whom he pleases based on NOTHING AT ALL (NULL ZILCH ETC) is NOT wrong and abhorrent is like changing a leopard's spots!!!!

    Do you hear what you say? Can you read it back to yourself and truly say that your logic makes God out to be a JUST and RIGHTEOUS God? That he picks whom he likes based on NOTHING other than He likes this person and not that?

    God chose me because I chose to follow Jesus and that is the truth of the matter.
     
  2. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    MY Calvinist response is that I do not now, nor have I ever beaten my wife, so your comparison is flawed because Dahmer actually did the evil I asked you about, while I did not do the evil that you accuse me of. You have falsely accused me and should repent to God of your sin.

    As for the sins of which I am actually guilty, God was most certainly capable of preventing them. In fact, God did intervene and prevent many sins that I had purposed in my heart to commit, but was unable to because of extraordinary circumstances preventing my acting on those desires. For those sins that I did commit, God had already incorporated them into His eternal plan - just as the sin of Joseph’s brothers furthered God’s plan towards the Passover - because God had foreknown me and predestined me and made arrangements to call me and draw me and justify me and, ultimately, glorify me. The sins that God permitted demonstrate that His choice of me was not because of any innate merit in me, but any “merit” in me is because God chose me.

    That sin allows me to testify of just how wide and deep and unfailing the Love of God for His children really is.

    That is MY Particular Baptist answer.
     
  3. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    :Cautious
    He asked me if I stopped beating my wife yet.
    That is the opposite of “trying to debate with you about the OP”.

    Have you stopped cheating on your husband?
    (Think about how YOU would answer that question?)
     
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  4. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I sure would like to know HOW you know you are who you claim, chosen of God. Subjective reasoning is human reasoning and you can only base your being chosen on how you act. If the Reformed could show me their names written somewhere before creation I would take my first step to taking them seriously.
     
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  5. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    God uses sin for his glory. No sin = no mercy. No sin = no righteousness. No sin = no grace. No sin = no sovereignty and so on. We see God's glory because of sin.
     
  6. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    What a quite SELF-RIGHTEOUS answer, 'glorify me' 'chose me'. Aren't you just God's special snow flake handpicked from the rest of us unworthy to be picked snow flakes!!

    God doesn't make anyone to sin, he uses the sin WE COMMIT OURSELVES to bring glory to HIMSELF (not you, not me, not billy joe). Your answer dishonors God and makes yourself out to be worthy of being chosen by God. You aren't worthy, and neither am I or anyone else. Faith to believe is what gets you into heaven, not just being a special born snowflake.
     
  7. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    I'm sure he didn't literally mean that about you. He was giving an EXAMPLE. JEEZE.
     
  8. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    But you already said that God CAUSES people to sin. Nope. Wrong again!!
     
  9. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    He causes people to eat their young and other people and that isn't sin?
     
  10. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Yet he also said all this:

    Benjamin said:
    Hey, atpollard, I have a loaded for you also, have you stopped beating your wife yet? Yes or no?

    Could God have stopped you from doing the things that you did?
    If not, then God is not Omnipotent, is He? Therefore God is really just “a god”.
    If yes, then God must have allowed you to do the things that you did because it served God’s Sovereign plan.
    So which is it? Did God sovereignly choose to allow the sin of beating your wife or was “god” impotent to stop it?
    What is your Calvinist response?
    My response is that you are responsible for YOUR actions in TRUTH!
    Is God not Omnipotent that he can't create beings with sense, reason and intellect while being Providentially Sovereign over His creatures rather than Deterministically Sovereign over them? Why do you limit His sovereignty to determinism if not to philosophically fit your Calvinist system?
    Simple logic draws out these Truths, such as upholding the attributes of God. For instance, that all of God's ways are judgment and that by aseity He is incapable of evil - is a TRUTH that must be upheld with logic and reason. Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
    God being Omnipotent cannot mean He can judge and hold responsible His creatures for their sin in which He pre-determined that they must do, that would not be judgment in truth, nor can God be a part of evil. Anymore than God can create a rock so big that even He cannot lift it, - there is no logical truth in that statement and there is no logical truth in your reasoning that God has determined all things, that He must have or He is not Omnipotent is merely begging the question and the TRUTH of your reasoning fails. It doesn't get anymore Biblical than God is Truth and that no evil comes from Him!
    Calvinism unavoidably equals determinism. Think about it, all 5 points of the TULIP must logically hinge on strict determinism.
    Here is the simple “truths” of Determinism:
    1) Necessarily God has fore determined everything that will happen
    2) God has determined X
    3) Therefore it is necessary that X will happen
    X = man’s choices
    X = evil
    So is a man held responsible for his choices which were not freely made?
    My "ANTI-Calvinist response" is that the philosophical construct of Calvinism which must logically hold to strict determinism leads you right into Theological Fatalism with the atheists that agree with you boys that God must have determined all things if He is Omnipotent, including evil and therefore man does not have free will (human volition). The problem you have is maintaining the TRUTH of the attributes of God which the Bible clearly says belong to God...
    You all can bash logic all you want to, heck most of you don't even recognize that Calvinism is built on a philosophically constructed system, but if you are not using your God given minds to reason you all are nothing more than parrots and puppets. I don't think my engaging you in biblical reasoning is going to change that, especially in this format, but you all have fun in your studies...​

    If you get stuck on one analogy he used as an example (true he could have said it in a better not so directed at yourself sort of way), and don't choose to answer the things that he presents, which make perfect sense to me, then you are just ignoring the argument and thus proves that your view is invalid.
     
  11. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    It is PUNISHMENT, not sin. PUNISHMENT.

    Why are you so hellbent on painting our All-Loving, All-Holy God in this evil way? Horrible!

    EDIT:

    Killing someone is a sin, but if done in the justifiable manner it is not. Same as with this. God punishes people, He is not sinning if His punishment is justified.
     
  12. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Sin is punishment when God hardens hearts.
     
  13. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    So you're saying God makes people sin, thus, saying that God can sin Himself? If he causes others to sin, how is that not the next logical conclusion? You believe that all you want, but my God is an all good, all perfect Holy God who does not sin and does not make people sin, but uses their sin for the good of those whom God loves due to them choosing to believe upon His son. Amen.
     
  14. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    God cannot sin. Sin is a breaking of a law. And there are no other gods he must obey. Whatever God does is perfectly Just. Even turning refined mothers into cannibals as he did in the siege of Jerusalem. Where he clearly tells us it is a judgement on the Jews.
     
  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    MissE, we have shared passage after passage with you from God's word. You are not being honest when you say we have shared "nothing at all." At this point, you are being stubborn and hard headed. You cannot blame Calvin, lack of scripture or anything but yourself for your attitude. That is entirely on you.

    You can brag about how God chose you because you so admirably and pridefully chose God first, if that is your desire. But, your assertion is demonstrably false as shown to you by multiple passages in scripture and by multiple people on this board.

    Remain in your arrogance until such time when God knocks your crutch out from under your feet, as he surely will do. (I lived 20+ years with the crutch you now use.)
     
  16. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    [Gal 5:16-24 NASB] 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
    19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

    self-inspection of Fruit.
    Whichever group describes your heart, points to your destiny.
     
  17. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    Ohhh, okay, NOW you're saying it's a JUDGEMENT, not a sin, that God is making those mothers commit.

    Interesting.
     
  18. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    And you remain blind and lost in your view of God.

    Either way, you had to put faith in Jesus at SOME point, so if you have that down, well I can't say you aren't saved, but I can say you have a wrong view of HOW you got saved. :)
     
  19. Miss E

    Miss E Active Member

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    -sigh-

    ONCE you put faith and trust in Jesus as your lord, THEN he gives you His holy spirit to help you do those fruits. :p

    I thought that was obvious....
     
  20. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    [Romans 8:28-30 NASB] 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

    [John 10:25-30 NASB] 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

    [John 6:43-45 NASB] 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.


    Your gripe really isn’t with me, it is with the Apostles and, if scripture really is inspired, then your gripe is with God. I can’t help you with that one. EVERY saved person is a special snowflake precisely because each and every one of us was unworthy to be picked ... but God picked us anyway.


    [Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
     
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