Is it moral to Kill in self-defense?

You read him because you heard he did miracles? Haven't you HEARD of Galatians 1:8?

www.deceptioninthechurch.com says of Wigglesworth, "In spite of his teaching that God promises perfect physical wholeness and that the Christian can operate in the same sign gifts that Christ exhibited, very few of those who sought Wigglesworth's healing ministrations were ever healed. His own wife died a mere six years after he became a Pentecostal, and his son died two years after that. His daughter, who assisted in his meetings, was never healed of her deafness. For three years Wigglesworth himself suffered with gallstones."

Your posts are plain strange and creepy because they are infected with Pentecostal theology. :eek:

 

Lol, I've never been to a Pentecostal church or read their doctrine. But I have been present and participated in casting out demons, and healing the sick, in a Baptist church lol! If that is creepy I'm fine with that, in fact I'm estatic to watch Jesus heal through a persons hands. What an awesome infection !By the way, Galations is talking about people who preach the Law, as opposed to the gospel of Jesus.

 

You have never read their doctrine? You are showing your naivete. Smith Wigglesworth is a dyed-in-the-wool pentecostal and he and his writings are held in high regard by today's pentecostals (who a lot of them have drifted from sound biblical teaching).

You may LOL whenever you want and wherever you want.

What 99% on this Board would find creepy is someone who would not lift a finger to defend a loved one from clear and present danger.

:eek:

 

What is creepy is I am defending the right to heal, and cast out the demons of an attacker, if I were to be attacked.

You are trying to defend the right to kill, which Jesus never said to do, unless you confuse the Old with the New.

The Devil comes to steal, kill, and detsroy. He waits as a roaring lion to devour who he may.
Jesus came to give life, and more abundantly.
Who do you serve?

P.S. Jesus and His words are better and bigger than the 99% you speak of.

 

LOL, please do not change the topic. You earlier said that you did not read pentecostal doctrine. I then said that you read such doctrine because Smith Wigglesworth is a dyed-in-the-wool pentecostal.

Question 1: Is Wigglesworth a pentecostal or not? If he is, then I have just disproven your allegation that you did not read pentecostal doctrine.

Years ago (I am not making this up), there was an article in the Philippine press about a missionary couple who was attacked by a burglar. The pastor shouted to the intruder, "I command you in Jesus name to stop!" This just angered the intruder to stab the pastor in the back. Good thing, the pastor survived his injuries.

Question 2: Would you advise all police to undergo, aside from normal police training, spiritual warfare training? So that the police would not have to waste bullets but just cast the demons out of every drug addict or gang member they encounter?

Question 3: Are you saying that the devil generally works in the police force and our military because their mission is to destroy the unlawful and our enemies?

 

LOL, please do not change the topic. You earlier said that you did not read pentecostal doctrine. I then said that you read such doctrine because Smith Wigglesworth is a dyed-in-the-wool pentecostal.

Question 1: Is Wigglesworth a pentecostal or not? If he is, then I have just disproven your allegation that you did not read pentecostal doctrine.

Start another thread, this is not the OP. If Wigglesworth was a member of the Pentecostal church, I was not aware of it nor do I care.

Question 2: Would you advise all police to undergo, aside from normal police training, spiritual warfare training? So that the police would not have to waste bullets but just cast the demons out of every drug addict or gang member they encounter?

I would not advise any police of anything. This is about a Christians right to take a life.

Question 3: Are you saying that the devil generally works in the police force and our military because their mission is to destroy the unlawful and our enemies?

I am saying that Satan works in the hearts of men. I quoted the words of Jesus and His instructions to true believers.

Where is your scripture, in context, in the New Testament, preferably the words of Jesus, telling us we have a right to take a life?

 

Haha, I just checkmated you! You have been reading Smith Wigglesworth's books and you are not aware he is pentecostal? If you were not aware of it--then you are aware of it right now! You don't care if he is pentecostal? I advise you to read John MacArthur's CHARISMATIC CHAOS. :smilewinkgrin:

 

Checkmate? Ok, if you say Wigglesworth was pentecostal, and now I know because you informed me, that's awesome. Start another thread and you can slay me some more.

Now where are your scriptures I asked for?

 

A checkmate is a checkmate. I do not need to slay you, just to checkmate you. :smilewinkgrin: And I repeat: Wigglesworth is a dyed-in-the-wool Pentecostal.

Okay, here's my opening move: Luke 22:36, "He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

A. From Barnes Notes on the Bible

"And he that hath no sword - There has been much difficulty in understanding why Jesus directed his disciples to arm themselves, as if it was his purpose to make a defense. It is certain that the spirit of his religion is against the use of the sword, and that it was not his purpose to defend himself against Judas. But it should be remembered that these directions about the purse, the scrip, and the sword were not made with reference to his "being taken" in the garden, but with reference "to their future life." The time of the trial in Gethsemane was just at hand; nor was there "time" then, if no other reason existed, to go and make the purchase. It altogether refers to their future life. They were going into the midst of dangers. The country was infested with robbers and wild beasts. It was customary to go armed. He tells them of those dangers - of the necessity of being prepared in the usual way to meet them. This, then, is not to be considered as a specific, positive "command" to procure a sword, but an intimation that great dangers were before them; that their manner of life would be changed, and that they would need the provisions "appropriate to that kind of life." The "common" preparation for that manner of life consisted in money, provisions, and arms; and he foretells them of that manner of life by giving them directions commonly understood to be appropriate to it. It amounts, then, to a "prediction" that they would soon leave the places which they had been accustomed to, and go into scenes of poverty, want, and danger, where they would feel the necessity of money, provisions, and the means of defense. All, therefore, that the passage justifies is:

1. That it is proper for people to provide beforehand for their wants, and for ministers and missionaries as well as any others.

2. That self-defense is lawful..."

Your move...

 

One verse? Are you serious? Where is the depth of teaching in that? Where is the other New Testament teachings to back this one vesre up? And to boot you copied from someone else's discernment of scripture lol!. You cannot read the script for yourself? Ok Robert, let me Google it and I'll have a reply lol.

Compare carefully the verses before and after, and the context of the situation they were in before you copy and paste the first thing that pops up on your Google search lol.

The greatest command is to love, Jesus said it.

Love your enemies, Jesus said it.

Bless your enemies, Jesus said it.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, Jesus said it.

Preach the Gospel, heal the sick, cast out devils in my name, Jesus said it.

The Devil came but to kill, steal, and destroy, Jesus said it.

Satan roams about as a roaring lion to devour, Jesus said it.

I came to give life, and life more abundantly, Jesus said it.

If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one, Jesus said it.

Uh oh, what's wrong with this picture?

Did Jesus say what the sword was for? Animals? Humans?

Did Jesus use the word sword as a figure of speech?

If the sword is to kill people with, why the sudden change Jesus?

Should I kill in your name Jesus?

Is there any other teaching Jesus taught to back this up, or does He seem to contradict Himself?

If He does seem to contradict, you might look into the real meaning of this verse instead of relying on a website you found for an excuse to kill someone by the Holy Spirit.

You might even ask God to reveal this verse to you while you pray to Him,or maybe the Holy Spirit reveals things to you via Google nowdays lol.

 

Dear Mr. Pentecostal Doctrine Lover,

You may LOL whenever you want and wherever you want. Jesus does not contradict himself. Your best move was to prove that the verse that I cited did not advocate self-defense. I am not going to reveal to you my other verses, because i am just going to checkmate you (as I have checkmated you earlier) with as little verses as possible.

Now again, prove to me that the explanation by Barnes, a notable theologian studied by several Christians in several Christian seminaries is not what it means.

Again, I will google another commentary on the same verse (from the same website):

Now here's from...

B. Clark's Commentary on the Bible

"...I intended you to continue itinerants only for a few days, and to preach the Gospel only to your country-men; therefore you had but little need of a staff, purse, or scrip, as your journey was neither long, nor expensive; but now I am about to send you into all the world, to preach the Gospel to every creature; and, as ye shall be generally hated and persecuted for my sake, ye shall have need to make every prudent provision for your journey; and so necessary will it be for you to provide yourselves victuals, etc., for your passage through your inhospitable country, that, if any of you have no scrip or wallet, he should sell even his upper garment to provide one." Others, who are for retaining the word sword, think that it was a proverbial expression, intimating a time of great difficulty and danger, and that now the disciples had need to look to themselves, for his murderers were at hand. The reader will observe that these words were spoken to the disciples just before he went to the garden of Gethsemane, and that the danger was now so very near that there could be no time for any of them to go and sell his garment in order to purchase a sword to defend himself and his Master from the attack of the Jewish mob."

I have now pitted two well-loved and well-respected theologians and teachers of Scripture against you.

Your best move is to disprove that Luke 22:36 does not advocate self-defense. Hint: first disprove that Mr. Barnes and a Mr. Clark are incorrect about the above verse.

And by the way, Charles Haddon Spurgeon seems to talk about you and learned men, when in the use of commentaries, he says, "It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others. My chat this afternoon is not for these great originals, but for you who are content to learn of holy men, taught of God, and mighty in the Scriptures. It has been the fashion of late years to speak against the use of commentaries. If there were any fear that the expositions of Matthew Henry, Gill, Scott, and others, would be exalted into Christian Targums, we would join the chorus of objectors, but the existence or approach of such a danger we do not suspect. The temptations of our times lie rather in empty pretensions to novelty of sentiment, than in a slavish following of accepted guides." :applause:

(You enjoy reading Smith Wigglesworth and you are not even aware of his many heresies? How come the Holy Spirit did not reveal that to you?) :eek:

 

robert: Jesus does not contradict himself.
Yes, I'm aware of that, to some it seems that way, for example:
Use a sword for self defense...or.... turn the other cheek
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

robert: Your best move was to prove that the verse that I cited did not advocate self-defense. I am not going to reveal to you my other verses,....
You don't have any other verses, if you did, you would produce them and reinforce an already widely misunderstood verse. Opposing opinions already agree it is a difficult area regardless of stance.

Since you want me to debate with dead theologians, I'll humor both of us.

Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

The Theory

Barnes: It altogether refers to their future life. They were going into the midst of dangers. The country was infested with robbers and wild beasts. It was customary to go armed. He tells them of those dangers - of the necessity of being prepared in the usual way to meet them. This, then, is not to be considered as a specific, positive "command" to procure a sword, but an intimation that great dangers were before them; that their manner of life would be changed, and that they would need the provisions "appropriate to that kind of life."

Danger in the future ...robbers and wild beasts

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Did Mr Barnes know that Jesus has all the power, and would always be with them?
"If God is with me, who can stand against me?" Did Barnes know that Jesus taught His followers that love casts out all fear?

In His final instructions to the disciples, and to all future believers, Jesus gave what we call The Great Commission. Very important words and the last He would speak before going up in the clouds. It's strange that Jesus did not remind them(and us) to take swords because there would be robbers and wild beasts. After all, if He gave us the okay to kill in self defence, you'd think He would mention it again since it is opposite of all His other teachings, to avoid confusion. God is not the author of confusion, did Mr Barnes know that?

Did anyone tell Paul he needed to buy a sword to defend himself?
Ephesians 6
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Believers Spread the Gospel

Paul took beatings continually....did not use a sword
Stephen stoned to death...did not use a sword
Peter crucified...no record of sword fights
John exiled to an island.....didn't fight his way back to civilization, with a sword

Wonder if this sword business means something else

Romans 12
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

2Corinthians 10
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

Wonder why Paul did not give instructions to the church about killing in self defence, seems like a very important teaching that should be clearly layed out in more than one verse

robert:Now again, prove to me that the explanation by Barnes, a notable theologian studied by several Christians in several Christian seminaries is not what it means

I will continue with Clark, could you give your other New Testament scriptures?

 

Well then, don't use a sword.

 

Of course it is. Why wouldn't it be? God gave us brains and a sense of self-preservation. Surely we're expected to use both. There are numerous Biblical accounts of justified self-defense.

Jesus came to purposely give himself up to his murderers. Unless you're a perfect being offering yourself up to save the world, what reason do you have for allowing yourself to be killed in violence? Now I can see not fighting as you're being led to your death after judgment is pronounced by an unjust government, such as the case of being sentenced to death for preaching the truth. That's not someone suddenly rising up to kill you because they want drugs or they're angry.

Same reason I swerve to avoid getting hit by drunk drivers. No, I don't trust that God wants me to get murdered by someone breaking into my home or that if a car comes squealing towards me, I should grit my teeth and take it because it's God's plan that I should die at that moment. If he wants me dead, I'll be dead anyhow regardless of what I try to do to stop it. I'm a human. He's God. Human. God. I haven't won a fight with Him yet and have faith that I never will!

This concept of laying down and dying and seeing it as some sort of faith in God thing makes no sense. If someone hits you, that's different. If they steal your stuff, that's different. But killing you and you not trying to stop it? That isn't faith, that's stupidity combined with a lack of faith that God put you here for a purpose and a lack of faith in the way you were created with an instinct to continue living. It's a lack of faith in the value of life. It's almost the same as suicide since you're letting someone do it with your consent since you're not fighting back and you have no purpose in allowing it, it doesn't save anyone, it doesn't do the world any good to let a murderer kill you, it doesn't do your family or others any good. THINK.

 

Where's the morality in willingly allowing one's wife to become a widow? Or one's kids fatherless?

 

Hi Plain n Simple :smilewinkgrin:

Here's my next move, an "Old Testament" verse (which is still very much in effect and strengthened by Jesus in the New Testament)... :thumbsup:

Exodus 20:13, "You shall not murder."

In this corner, John Gill (23 November 1697 – 14 October 1771) English Baptist pastor, biblical scholar, and theologian. In the other corner, Plain n Simple (reads and admires Smith Wigglesworth, a pentecostal false prophet, his avatar...)

Plain n Simple's allegation: All killing in self-defense done today is not permitted by Scripture. :laugh:

John Gill's (a Primitive Baptist) Exposition of the Entire Bible says, "Thou shalt not kill. Not meaning any sort of creatures, for there are some to be killed for the food and nourishment of men, and others for their safety and preservation; but rational creatures, men, women, and children, any of the human species, of every age, sex, condition, or nation; no man has a right to take away his own life, or the life of another; by this law is forbidden suicide, or self-murder, parricide or murder of parents, homicide or the murder of man; yet killing of men in lawful war, or in defence of a man's self, when his own life is in danger, or the execution of malefactors by the hands or order of the civil magistrate, and killing a man at unawares, without any design, are not to be reckoned breaches of this law; but taking away the life of another through private malice and revenge, and even stabbing of a man's character, and so all things tending to or designed for the taking away of life, and all plots, conspiracies, and contrivances for that purpose, even all sinful anger, undue wrath and envy, rancour of all mind, all malice in thought, word, or deed, are contrary to this precept, see Matthew 5:21 and which, on the other hand, requires that men should do all they can for the ease, peace, and preservation of the lives of men: this is the sixth command, but, in the Septuagint, the strict order in which this and the two following precepts lie is not observed, rehearsing them thus, "thou shall not commit adultery, thou shall not steal, thou shall not kill"; and so in Mark 10:19 the order is inverted."

 

Robert, you have not addressed my previous reply, if you even bothered to read it with any seriousness. I don't believe your intent is in earnest to study this scripture (Luke 22:36) to support your veiwpoint, or trade thoughts in a mature way, it's just a silly ridicule game for you. I prefer the give and take between two live people as opposed to your posting someone else's opinion, then me commenting on that opinion, it's rather worthless. Should you ever read the bible for yourself, it might be more interesting. God bless and best wishes.

 

Think that the "greater works" would be mainly in the area that we all can take the Gospel and live for Jesus in power of the HS throutout the World today, as jesus no longer stuck in one spot as He was back than!

 

or resist evil by force, asaccording to this view, should have let God deal directly with hitler and NOT try to fight him!

 

The definition of "kill" in the Bible is not one of self-defense. It is the sudden rising up in anger and violence to unjustly take the life of someone else. That isn't referring to self-defense, war, or the death penalty.