By that logic how you do defend any paradox or mystery in the text?
Definitive: God is one.
Non Definitive: Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God.
(also, not sure how you define what is "definitive" and what is not)
Could it not be true that an omnipotent God chooses to limit some part of his ability within time and space? When Cliff Lee (famous pro pitcher) plays ball with his 7 year old does he pitch a 98 mile per hour fast ball just because he has that ability? See my point?
is it Possible For God to "repent/Change His Mind?"
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Apr 19, 2011.
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The bible is clear that God knows everything and is omnipotnet and unchanging and that is why he can be trusted in the first place.
The only reason some christians get into a theological mess and become pray for logical atheists who run rings around them and make a mockery of the bible and theology as compared with simple logic is because those christians have abandoned the clear teachings of God in all his attributes without contradiction, in favor of ideas that suite their limited notions of justice. Conforming God to the image of man is always a recipe for disaster and it is proven in the forefront of the faith in the apologetics battle. Calvinists don't have this problem and we run rings around the atheists because we simply accept what the bible says and even they admit we are the most biblical and honest of all christians. -
Also, what keeps one from simply reversing those?
Definitive: I repented.
Non Definitive: I do not repent.
And then you could "explain the second statement away" by saying something like, "God doesn't repent of sin because he doesn't sin, but he may repent of other apparent choices (i.e. His choice to punish evil)."
Why not just take both revealed truths as being true and accept the mystery as we do with the trinity? -
Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Jacob tells us the man he wrestled with was God in vs. 30. And vs. 25 says the Lord "prevailed not" against Jacob. We see in vs. 26 that the Lord asked Jacob to let him go, and this was after Jacob's thigh was put out of joint! Jacob was stubborn and would not let go of the Lord. And we see in vs. 28 that the Lord himself said Jacob prevailed in this wrestling match.
So, obviously when God appeared to Jacob in this passage God was limited. -
Why? Because you recognize the author of scripture as an AUTHORITY that can't be corrected. So, you will rebuke no names like me for saying the same thing that the author of Genesis said. Why is it ok for scripture to explain God in anthropomorphic terms but its not ok for me to understand those terms, believe them and then use those same terms to teach others about God? -
Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
The scriptures do not say Jacob wrestled with someone like a man, they say Jacob wrestled with a man. And in the following verses we find out this man was God.
Not saying I understand this, but this is what the scriptures directly say. -
Romans 11:34-36 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. He is the start by his Spirit, He brings us through Christ by his Grace through Faith, And we have peace because he has his satisfaction of Holiness because of the blood of the Lamb. So all the glory Goes to God. -
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God never changed his mind but delivered mercy instead of what justice demanded. He always knew he would do that, he never changed his mind about it. It is a communication of God's righteousness in his delivering mercy instead of justice. -
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Plus, wouldn't you agree there are different types of "repenting" or relenting? I might repent for doing wrong, or I might relent in my desire to spank a child for lying to me. Are those two equal? Of course not. There is a huge difference in my repenting for doing evil and my relenting in judgement of another who has done evil. While the scripture claims God would never do the first (because he never does evil), it clearly indicates he does do the latter. Why does scriptures denial of the first contradict the latter in your mind? -
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So, then what is wrong with us understanding and explaining Him by those same terms? -
I see no reason to fight against him as he is. I do not have any problems with a Sovereign God. Biblically it can;t be any other way. I find it impossible to defeat the notions of atheistic thinkers outside of the scope of systematic biblical theology aka - calvinism. Calvinism is the only christian theological system an atheist cannot slip through. All he can do is reject it. The reason for that is because it is the only theological system that is indeed biblical. -
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Second, here are some passages to consider:
Ex 32:9
The Lord said to Moses, "I have seen these people, and I know that they are very stubborn. 10 So now do not stop me. I am so angry with them that I am going to destroy them. Then I will make you and your descendants a great nation." 11 But Moses begged the Lord his God and said, "Lord, don't let your anger destroy your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with your great power and strength. 12 Don't let the people of Egypt say, 'The Lord brought the Israelites out of Egypt for an evil purpose. He planned to kill them in the mountains and destroy them from the earth.' So stop being angry, and don't destroy your people. 13 Remember the men who served you -- Abraham, Isaac, and Israel. You promised with an oath to them and said, 'I will make your descendants as many as the stars in the sky. I will give your descendants all this land that I have promised them, and it will be theirs forever.'" 14 So the Lord changed his mind and did not destroy the people as he had said he might.
1 Chronicles 21:15
And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. As he was destroying, the Lord looked and relented of the disaster, and said to the angel who was destroying, "It is enough; now restrain your hand." And the angel of the Lord stood by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.
Amos 7:6
So the Lord relented concerning this. "This also shall not be," said the Lord God.
Jonah 3:10
Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it. -
Second, your view isn't necessarily 'biblical.' It is actually a systematic theology, not purely biblical. To be purely biblical is to read the story of how God planned to destroy Israel but Moses prayed and God relented and to believe it as presented. To systematize it to fit your dogma you must add qualifications to that purely biblical story to make God appear differently that the biblical story alone presents Him. So you can take the pure biblical approach and allow people to believe what they read, or you can take the systematized approach and add qualifications to the biblical story to change the perspective of how God relates to Moses. -
Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
God did repent too, as he had told Jonah to preach Ninevah would be overthrown earlier.
Jonah 3:1 And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying,
2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.
3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.
4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
People says God never changes, well, that cannot mean that God never changes his mind, because he surely did in the case of Ninevah. Note that Jonah said "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." God didn't say maybe, and he didn't say perhaps. This is clearly a declaration of what God intended to do. But when the people repented of their sins, God repented of the evil he had said he would do unto them.
Those who say God never repents are in error. -
Now I had a brother in Christ show me this one in Jeremiah to prove to me that God did not know what man would do.
Jeremiah 18:8-10 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
Now we can know from this God may have a blessing for us that we lose for our disobedience and if we are doing wrong then we can be blessed if we stop and do right. But this was to the Nation Israel and they always ended up doing wrong. I believe God knew they would do wrong. They were compelled to by God and Christ in his day, but he was to come and be rejected but it would be on them and not God. Their judgement was for there actions.
As far as God not knowing what they would or would not do is not what I get from this passage. It was not written so we could get something like that about God. But it was done that we should understand their is a judgement for wrong and a blessing for doing right and because we find ourselves in one or the other that we should still take heed to what we shall do. I also think in the very declaration of this that some repented of their evil and some didn't cease from their good and God knew that too.
I don't think the word "repent" there changes the immutability and purpose of God though. Those things are still true. God punishes evil and blesses those in his word but still all the glory goes to God who has mercy on us. He is not repenting like a man but blessing or punishing. God's people who are saved by his grace still have an outward carnal nature. If we lean to the flesh we die and if we lean to the spirit we live but if any man have not the spirit of Christ he is none of his. They will just always error. -
MB
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