Is the GOSPEL a work of the Holy Spirit, or not?

I quote Scripture also.
The challenge is to use scripture to demonstrate that faith is a gift given to unbelievers. No one has done that. Please remember that previously we have had five threads on this subject. The Scripture quoted above relates how the Word of God brings one to salvation. I agree with that. The Word of God is not equivalent to faith. One must have faith in the message of the Word of God.

Scripture:
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
--Not believe with the gift of God's faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:9-10)

There are dozens if not hundreds more that tell us one must believe in order to be saved. It is not believe with God's faith. It is not believe with the gift of God--faith coming from God. The belief is one's own faith. This is not my opinion; it is the teaching of the Word of God. And for months now, no Calvinist has not been able to show from the Scripture otherwise.

 

Again though, we have CLEARLY shown from the Bible that ALL died spiritually in Adam, ALL are dead in themselves, and that BONE comes to God in and by themselves! the Gospel will ONLY work to produce saving faith in them he "openned up" like Lydia, and THAT is ALL from the scriptures too!

 

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

The excuse of Adam is just an excuse not to come to Jesus and have life eternal

 

You have not shown anything from the Scriptures--at least not regarding faith. You have repeated Calvinistic mantras without any Biblical basis. Where is the Scripture that says God gives faith to the unsaved--even one verse of Scripture will do? You can't do it, can you?

It doesn't say that God gave faith to Lydia. That is your presupposition; your reading into the text. God opened up her heart. There is nothing said about faith. Why are you reading into the text something that is not there?

 

What part of faith comes "from hearing the word of God" did you not understand? We do not possess faith by our nature, we accept God's truth.

Why not stop speaking in Code, what you are really saving in a deceptive way, is "total spiritual inability" precludes men of flesh from understanding the milk of the gospel. And that of course is your false doctrine. See 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 where men of flesh can understand the milk.

Stop misrepresenting God's Word.

 

Aaron is correct here in his assertion about ME, in that I remain convinced that the ability to have faith is simply a part of imago dei. To this point, I have not encountered an argument to cause me to change that position. I must add that he (Aaron, note that I do not use any slanderous version of his moniker as he so often does) seeks to try to "tar" myself with man himself being the sum total of his own salvation. He KNOWS that is outright false.

 

Hi Quantumfaith, I do not understand your post #46. The ability to have faith in anything, good, bad or evil is because of God creating us with that ability. That would be our natural ability. Now we cannot by our own nature trust in the gospel unless we have heard and understood the gospel. So that grace of revelation from God is necessary for us to "possess faith" in Christ.

So by my lights, Aaron is completely wrong in his assertion about you or any other person. The Bible says we can understand, as men of flesh, the milk of the gospel. Any other position is unbiblical.

 

Perhaps it is me who did not completely understand. I was attempting to respond to pejorative punches (not by you) for not having the same perspective on faith, regeneration and soteriology in general.

 

Willis, this puts you squarely in the Reformed camp. Now, if that is what you believe, fine, stand strong in your viewpoint.

But... the problem with this view is that you must believe that God does not truly want everyone to be saved. If men do not have faith in this view, it is because God did not give this gift to them. Therefore, God must want these persons to perish, otherwise he would simply give them faith. There is no way around this.

Cals/Ref love to accuse non-Cals of exalting man, nothing could be further from the truth. Non-Cals take full responsibility for their sins and a man perishing. If we go to hell, it is because we choose to reject Christ when we had the ability to accept him. It is not God's fault. Non-Cals are defending God, we are not exalting man.

In the Cal/Ref view you cannot escape the fact that God is ultimately responsible for men going to hell. You can't be 100% responsible for salvation AND 0% responsible for damnation. If the only person who can be saved is that man whom God elects and gives faith to, then those who perish are those God chose to pass over and not give faith to. There is no escape from this logical conclusion, though many try to rationalize this truth away.

It is true that faith is a gift in the sense that God presents the truth to man through the gospel. This is a powerful message of truth that can convict the hardest sinner of his sins and bring him to his knees. But the man must decide if the gospel is truth for himself.

Jn 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

This is the story of the woman caught in the act of adultery. These wicked men sought to entrap Jesus and brought her before him. But Jesus uttered the famous words,

He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

This message pierced the hearts of these wicked men. Immediately, their own sins came to their mind and they quickly remembered how many times they had sinned against God. That is why they left beginning at the eldest, because the longer a man lives, the more he sins. So, the eldest were first deeply convicted of their own sinfulness and saw their hypocrisy.

But note they were convicted by "their own" conscience. The message was supernatural, but the conviction was quite natural. Men have the ability to be convicted, and men have the ability to believe, although no man can believe what he does not know.

The gospel is a supernatural message. It comes from God and is powerful truth. It can pierce the heart and conscience, and convict the hardest man of his sin and bring him to repentance. It can convince man of truth, so that he can believe the gospel and be saved.

But if you believe that faith is a gift, and not an ability that all men have, then you must conclude that God desires that men perish, otherwise he would give them the gift of faith. There is no way around this.

 

:laugh:

:laugh:

You say faith isn't a natural ability, then you say it is.

Where does it say that?

 

Hi Aaron, we can put our trust in a stump because of our God given natural ability. What I said is we cannot "possess faith in Christ" without God's revelation, faith [in Christ] comes from hearing God's word, not from ourselves.

1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 presents two facts. One, unless we are indwelt, it is impossible to understand spiritual things. Calvinists add, "all spiritual things" and I add "some spiritual things." Either reading is possible if you view this verse in isolation. But if you read the passage, the second fact is presented, Paul spoke to "babes in Christ" as "men of flesh" because they could not understand some spiritual things because they had not yet learned from the Holy Spirit, they had not grown into maturity. However, they and men of flesh could understand the milk (milk or fundamentals of the gospel) which are spiritual things. So the only reading possible in context is "some spiritual things" cannot be understood by men of flesh.

 

If an unsaved man could not understand spiritual things then no man could ever be saved.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23)

But wait! We can't understand the word of God! We are all doomed forever in a lost state. No one can understand the Word before salvation, thus no one can be saved. :tonofbricks:

 

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This passage is neither obscure nor colored by its location in the text. This is a straightforward maxim and stands alone like any of the Proverbs. There is no confusing what is said here. There is no possibility of misunderstanding by any, saved or not.

But what the Noncalvinist cannot do is believe it, because it is foolishness to him. The only way you can get around it is to say that the preaching of the Gospel is not a work of the Holy Spirit.

 

It is almost laughable Aaron that the Calvinist consistently takes this verse out of context and keeps using it in the way that you do. Go back to verses 11-13. What do they speak about and who are they speaking to? The entire chapter is written to believers. Paul is speaking of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and how it enables believers to understand the Word of God (spiritual things). It is what we call illumination.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (1 Corinthians 2:12-13)
--We have received the Spirit which is of God.
Therefore we understand the things that are of God (i.e., the Word of God; the deeper truths of God).
Then Paul reiterates, "which things we teach," explaining in chapter three that he ought to have been teaching them the meat of the Word of God, the deeper truths of the Word of God. The Holy Spirit illuminates the mind of the believer to these truths because they are indwelt by Him.

However:
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
--The natural man (unsaved) receive not the things of the Spirit of God.
Why? They don't have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They cannot understand the meat of the Word. God does not illuminate their minds. It does not mean that they cannot understand anything.
If that were true:
It would be impossible for anyone to be saved, for all men must understand the gospel to be saved--those are spiritual truths. Your proposition contradicts itself and leads to a fruitless end of futility.

 

Aaron, please note that part of 1 Cor 2:12 I have highlighted in red. Paul is saying these Corinthians have already received the Holy Spirit that they "might know the things that are freely given of God".

These things CANNOT be faith, because Paul tells us in Galatians 3:2 that the Holy Spirit is received by faith.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

This is a rhetorical question that demands the answer that a person receives the Holy Spirit by hearing and having faith. So what is the order shown?

Hearing (the word of God)-----> Faith (believeing)-----> Receiving Holy Spirit-----> Knowing the things that are freely given of God

So, now go back to 1 Cor 2:12 and you see these persons had already received the Holy Spirit. Now, according to Galatians 3:2, we can know these persons had already heard the gospel and believed it, and now have received the Spirit in order that they can know these "things of God".

So, 1 Cor. 2:14 is misinterpreted by Calvinism to teach that a person cannot believe God's word when they hear it, when that is not what the verse is saying whatsoever. In fact, Galatians 3:2 shows that an unregenerate person can believe the word of God and if they do they receive the Holy Spirit. These persons in 1 Cor 2:14 have already heard the gospel and believed it, they now have the Spirit that they might "know the things that are freely given of God".

 

Animals have faith. We picked up a cat for our kids from a shelter about two years ago. His name is Garfield, he is red and white and looks just like the cartoon cat.

We were told this cat was badly abused, and it was obvious. If ever there was a cat you could call a "Scaredy Cat", Garfield was it. He was terrified of all people, including us at first. He would run from us, hide under furniture, or run under the porch. We would set out food and milk for him, and when he was sure no one was around he would eat. But if you made the smallest noise, or tried to approach, he would immediately run and hide.

This went on for maybe three or four months, until one day I called Garfield with a bowl of food and he came to me. I had to move slow, if I made any sudden moves he would run away. For awhile, I was the only person he would approach. Eventually, Garfield came to trust me and the rest of the family. He now comes to us and loves to be brushed and held. He is not afraid of us at all. But he is still very frightened of all other people.

But the point is, even animals have faith. It took poor Garfield awhile to realize that not all people are going to hurt him. He now trusts us, he has faith in us, he is not afraid of us.

 

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


the

here is logos This is the the Eternal Word of God. That by which we are born again, that which is not corruptible, but is incorruptible is the logos, this is as John taught us, In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God, the same was in the beginning, and the word became flesh...

The Gospel (what you and I are able to preach) is corruptible in the hands of man and men.

No man can prevent nor hinder the quickening of the elect; no man, nor men, nor gospel preached among men, can effect it. Christ taught Nicodemus 'except a man be born again' he cannot see nor enter....

Just as in the birth of a child there is a period of which there is life, yet unexperienced by that individual. At the natural birth, the person who already possessed life begins to experience that life.

Same with an elect individual. There is life previous to the experience of that life by obedience to the Gospel message.

The Gospel and the Gospel ministry is not given the task of redeeming the people of God, HE has performed this in Christ; the Gospel and the Gospel ministry does have the task of feeding the sheep. They were are and always shall be sheep before they are fed.

When I was young we raised cattle from the bottle up. I never saw any calf being fed become or realize that it was a calf only after it was fed. The sheep are the same, we do not feed in the flock in order to make the sheep, we are told to feed the sheep.

They are already alive in Christ by His will and purpose; He himself says that He knows his sheep, they hear his voice and they follow him.

This is very clearly stated.

bro. Dallas

 

Yep.

Yep.

Yep.

Completely and wholly read into the passage. This is DHK, not the Scripture.

And now you carry your eisegesis into the rest of the chapter. Milk or meat, it's of God, and the natural man receiveth not the things of God. (You know what it says, you just can't believe it.) A stillborn infant does not suck at its mother's breasts. When one begins in the faith, he begins in the Spirit (Gal. 3:3), not in the carnal mind, for it hates God, (Rom. 8:7).

True, nor the milk.

True.

That's true. It's that they cannot believe it.

A kid once told me she had received some presents from Santa. I didn't have any difficulty in understanding it. I just didn't believe it, and couldn't even if I wanted to. (I mean, who WOULDN'T want to believe in a jolly old elf that flies around the world once a year bringing gifts to all the good little boys and girls in the world?)

. . . by natural means. That's true.

No, not really understand. They must believe.

 

And so again, you must conclude that the Gospel is not of the Holy Ghost.