Do we equate that the Gospel message must be including the Dog for it to be right, or that we must have a certain view on the atonement?
the Bible describes the Gospel to us as jesus died for loss sinners as their substitute, he rose for their justification, and ONLY hope to get saved is freceiving Him thru faith...
Did the Apostles state " we hold to the unlimited view/but include DoG"
Or was that to be adressed AFTER saved by the Cross?
is the Gospel Also the Dog/Atonement views?
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Yeshua1, Jun 18, 2014.
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
No. Limited Atonement is not the Gospel.
While some Arminians and some Calvinists are far outside the bounds of orthodoxy, many Arminians and many Calvinists are well within the bounds of orthodoxy in their understanding of the Gospel. An orthodox gospel is one that preaches and affirms salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone while affirming a penal-substitutionary atonement.
Many Calvinists and many Arminians preach the true Gospel without reference to whether the atonement is limited or unlimited.
The Archangel
ETA: I have no reason for the increased font size. I can't make it what it was originally.... Bummer.
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A promise must have a foundation behind it.
Paul shows this in 1 Corinthians 15;
1 Cor 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
Paul shows here that if Jesus did not rise from the dead in reality, then preaching the gospel will not save anybody. And if Jesus did not rise from the dead, then your faith will not save you, your faith is vain and you will die in your sins.
Likewise, if Jesus did not die for you personally, your faith will not save you. Your faith is vain and you will die in your sins.
If Limited Atonement is true, then no man can know Jesus died for him. And if Jesus did not die for you, all the faith and confidence in the world will not save you.
You could believe a gun is unloaded and put it to your head and pull the trigger, if it is loaded, it will blow your head off. Your confidence and faith does not determine what is reality.
In fact, that is how the great guitar player Terry Kath for the band Chicago died, he picked up a gun he thought was unloaded and put it to his head and pulled the trigger. His faith was vain.
The point is, if Jesus did not die for you, your faith will not save you. Your faith is vain and you will die and go to hell. -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
But, your thinking here--as you've stated before--shows a complete misunderstanding of faith and grace. You seem to think that faith is that thing we contribute to merit grace.
For you, Jesus' death is that "golden ring" we must all reach up and grab. Though you don't consider faith a "work" it is, at the very least, a contribution that comes from you to the salvation process, hence the term "Synergism."
But, grace is, by definition, "Unmerited favor." There is noting we can contribute that will merit God's grace.
Of course, since you've suggested here, Jesus does die for sins, the question must be asked: If Unlimited Atonement is true and Jesus died for all sins, why is anyone sent to hell? Why is there punishment given out on unbelievers if Christ took that punishment already?
The Archangel -
Winman,in your view the Lord has propitiated the sins of every single human being past,present and future. There is no wrath that the Lord can mete out. It would be unjust of Him to do so per your view.
Again, to tell someone that God loves them and Christ died for them -- there is no difficulty for them --they are safe. There is no urgency that they must repent and believe. And believe what --that God loves them and Christ died for them? You give then a false sense of comfort and security.
Winman your "gospel message" is truncated to be charitable. It is not biblical.
Sinners need to be told of their separation from the thrice holy God. They need to be told that they stand in a precarious position. They have offended God with their sins. But there is a remedy. One made a sacrifice for sinners -- the Holy Lamb of God --Jesus. They need to be told to repent of their sins and believe in Christ and His work on the cross. There is pardon and forgiveness through Him alone --there is no other mediator. -
Kudos to those last two posts...:thumbsup:
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the NT full of promises/assurances that we CAN now that we jave now passed from death to life, and can have confidence that God will complete tghat which he started in us...
How can he know that he is really saved, using his own standards here? -
And if you do not know who the elect are, you do not know if you are elect either. You have no idea if Jesus died for you. And if Jesus did not die for you, your faith is vain and you will die and go to hell.
If Jesus did not die for you personally, your faith is vain and you will perish.
But if you want to talk about faith, how do you have faith in an absolute uncertainty?? -
What you should have asked is - Where Does SCRIPTURE Support such a notion?
But it's not only you and your team who commit this foul. Your opponents are just as guilty of arguing from vain philosophy.
Both sides trying to ask those "pin him to the wall" questions, when you should be reasoning from the scriptures.
And in all fairness, your opponents are able to make a better case from scripture than you -
My first answer would be that Jesus died for all men, but God requires that you believe to receive this free gift.
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
First of all, why would Jesus command us to preach the gospel to every creature if the gospel does not apply to every creature.
I know, you will say you do not know who the elect are (including yourself), but that is still a lame answer. We are told to preach the gospel to every creature because Jesus died for every man.
Nevertheless, those who believe shall be saved, those who do not shall be damned. This is what God requires.
The scriptures say those who do not believe God have made him a liar. God does not give eternal life to people who call him a liar.
1 Jhn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
I would also answer that we only receive spiritual blessing "in Christ" and you must believe on Jesus to be placed "in Christ".
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
I would also answer that we only have access into God's grace by faith.
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
But how can you believe in an uncertainty? If Jesus only died for some men, and there is no way to know for certainty who are those elect persons, how is it possible to have faith and assurance you are one of those fortunate elect persons? You can't. It is a recipe for doubt and confusion. And the more you try to work up faith, the more you doubt.
This is why many thousands of Calvinists are plagued with doubt. Google "how can I know I am elect" and you will see page after page, after page of Calvinists who are afraid and lack assurance, wanting to know how they can know if they are one of the fortunate elect persons.
https://www.google.com/webhp?source...#q=how+can+i+know+that+i+am+one+of+the+elect? -
The proclamation Gospel has dual purposes. It is meant for the eternally lost and elect.
You need a dose of Rolfe Barnard. -
This is not complicated.
The NT promises are only for those whom Christ died. The devils believe and tremble, why aren't they saved? Because Jesus did not die for them.
And if Limited Atonement is true, I am in the same boat you are, I cannot know that I am elect, I cannot know Jesus died for me, I do not have a promise made to me that I can believe in and rely on. -
You're slowly coming around....
BTW, "cut n' paste" is fun...LOL J/K.... -
If you have trusted Jesus, then you have died to sin with him, or rather "in him". If you have not trusted Jesus, then you will die "in your sins".
Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
How many men is "every" man?
And believing Jesus died for you does not make it so. If he did not die for you in reality, your faith is vain, and you will die in your sins. -
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You keep on denying the truth of the sciptures though, as those who have been saved by the Grace of God will know they are the elect of God, as the Holy Spirit witnesses that to us, and that we have become new creatures in Christ, new mindset and bent now towards things of the lord!
I know whom I have believed in, and he is able to keep me fully until that day, i agree with paul on this, do you? -
But the 20 milllion or so Arminians in the Seventh-day Adventist denomination will argue that while we have an unlimited Atoning Sacrificce (NIV 1John 2:2) at the cross - we have a limited Atonement in the fullest sense because not all mankind is saved so not all choose to accept the benefits of that unlimitted atoning sacrifice.
in Christ,
Bob
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