I agree that He came in the flesh for us, because He was/is our sacrificial Lamb. But He came in the likeness of sinful flesh. He was/is the spotless Lamb of God.
A living soul is a soul saved by God. The dead becomes dead in sins and trespasses when God imputes sin unto it. It needs to be restored by God, and is brought back to life. The soul is the inner man, and is not part of the physical body.
I would agree with this.
Agreed.
The living soul will never die. Our soul will return to God when we die, and the flesh will molder back to the dust(Ecc. 12:7). God gives the soul, and the flesh He forms from the union of sperm-egg.
The living soul will never die. Our soul will return to God when we die, and the flesh will molder back to the dust(Ecc. 12:7). God gives the soul, and the flesh He forms from the union of sperm-egg.(I cut and copied this again to save time in this post)
We will be judged? I think it is more like our sentence is rendered by the Judge. When we are resurrected, we will be either a Sheep or goat. We have been judged either "guilty" or "not guilty" when our soul leaves our body. In Luke 16, when Lazarus and the rich man died, one went up, the other down, as soon as they died. Some will be found "not guilty" and the other "guilty" as soon as they died. Now, they are in their respective "holding cell" till the Judge comes, and then those who died lost, will come out of hell, and tossed in the lake of fire, to torment forever. Those who died saved, they will be given their new spiritual body, and gathered into heaven, to be with God for eternity.
is the NEW nature In Christ the Holy Spirit Indwelling us?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Nov 21, 2011.
Page 4 of 5
-
-
Here is an OT "type" of Christ:
Leviticus 16:20-22
20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:
21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
So, eventhough Jesus was truly not a goat, He became one for us. -
-
Brother Percho posted this:
They did die. But did God take and place them in a tomb somewhere, or did He just drive them out of the Garden? The soul died(seperation from God), and God placed a flaming sword and cherubim betwixt them(Adam and Eve) and the Tree of Life(Jesus). If the soul died like our physical, we would die also. The soul is what keeps our heart pumping, our lunging inhaling and exhaling, our brain to function. When the soul leaves the body, our physical body ceases to function(seperation of soul from body). So if our soul is dead in this fashion, we can not live altogether.
Brother Percho posted this:
Hebrew word for Spirit in Ecc. 12:7 ruwach רוּחַ
wind, breath, mind, spirit
a) breath
b) wind
1) of heaven
2) quarter (of wind), side
3) breath of air
4) air, gas
5) vain, empty thing
c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
So, what you see here, is the inner man, the soul/spirit of a man. Man is two parts, and not three, as some suggest on here. We are flash and soul/spirit.
Greek word for spirit: pneuma πνεῦμα
1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the "Holy" Spirit)
b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of "Truth")
c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
b) the soul
Another Greek word used for spirit: phantasma φάντασμα
1) an appearance
2) an apparition, spectre
So the two Greek words used for "spirit" are referring to the inner man, the soul. The two words are G4151(which is used the majority of the time), and G5326.
Brother Percho posted this:
-
Why imply that I said the flesh was the sin nature? Can you not read. Why not answer my questions? What are you doing, behaving like a Calvinist?
What did Jesus mean when He said the spirit was willing but the flesh was weak? Why not belly up to the challenge and present your position? What did Paul mean when he said make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts. Why change the subject to me wanting it both ways.
Tell me your position, and save the smoke screen response.
I have yet to meet a Calvinist willing to actually present doctrinal discussion, now I fear you seem to have gone to the same church. -
Hi Convicted, see how many verses you can find that say Jesus became sin for us and how many say He became a sin offering for us. You have one variant of one verse. I have the same verse with another variant plus several more. Sound study requires my view. As far as the OT scapegoat type, yes Jesus really did take way our sin, the circumcision done without hands. But He did not become sin in order to nail them to the cross.
-
The man became dead in trespass and sin. Lit. Dying, Thou shall surly die. from YLT Dying, thou dost die.
He did not totally die that day but he begin the process. And the day the breath of the spirit of life left him, he Adam the once living soul was dead.
The bible never calls man the soul, spirit. Thayer quotes two verses he believes implies the soul apart from the body being spirit. Heb 12:23 and 1 Peter 3:19. Let me just say, you have to read between many lines to make them say that.
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
It this doesn't say that because of the resurrection that the soul of Jesus was not left in Hades then just what does it say? And by the way it says soul not spirit. Three days and three nights before his resurrection Jesus had commended his spirit (that is the life giving spirit from God) into the hands of his Father. -
Is the new nature the Holy Spirit indwelling us?
In a word, NOPE.
We are a new creation, we have undergo the circumcision of Christ and have been made alive together with Christ.
So before we were "born again" when had our human Spirit with its separation from God, i.e. dead in its tresspasses, and its corruption due to the consequence of the Fall. When Adam's "eyes were opened" notice that Eve's eyes were also opened, so something spiritual happened to corrupt her. Subsequently, all mankind are conceived with a spiritualy corrupted human spirit. But it gets worse. Our human Spirit which is our core, our soul, our inner man, is clothed in flesh with its desires for comfort and security. Our flesh tempts us with its lusts, such as greed for a bigger house and a faster car which are manifestations of a love of money or what the world offers.
After we are born again, we still are clothed in flesh with its lusts, but our human spirit has been altered, circumcised by Christ and made alive together with Christ. The corruption has been removed. Now we are created for good works. And to help us grow more Christ like into Christian maturity, we have our helper, the indwelt Holy Spiirt. -
2 Cor. 5:21 - For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (KJV)
Greek Rendering of the phrase in question: ὑπὲρ(for, on behalf of) ἡμῶν(us) ἁμαρτίαν(sin) ἐποίησεν(he made).
Every major greek text has the phrase: ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν (Sin he made). In English we render it correctly as "He made (HIM...the one not knowing sin, ie, Jesus) ...SIN."
See also: 1 Peter 2:24 - And He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
Greek literally translated would read "The sins of us himself bore in the body of him on the tree." -
So the answer is ... one verse, 2 Corinthians 5:21. And a variant of the verse reads for a sin offering.
Now how many say Jesus was made a sin offering? Romans 8:3.
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, [NASB]
Does 1 Peter 2:24 say Jesus became sin? Nope. Scripture says He bore our sins in His body. Thus like a scapegoat He carried way our sins.
Next we need to turn to Hebrews chapter 10. How does Hebrews 10:10 read? Does it not say we have been sanctified or made holy through the "sacrifice" of the body of Jesus. Then in verse 12 we have Jesus offering a single sacrifice for all sins. Then in verse 14 we get a single offering.
There is no need to go on. Jesus did not become sin for us, He became a sin offering for us. -
-
Van said: ↑So the answer is ... one verse, 2 Corinthians 5:21. And a variant of the verse reads for a sin offering.
Now how many say Jesus was made a sin offering? Romans 8:3.
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, [NASB]
Does 1 Peter 2:24 say Jesus became sin? Nope. Scripture says He bore our sins in His body. Thus like a scapegoat He carried way our sins.
Next we need to turn to Hebrews chapter 10. How does Hebrews 10:10 read? Does it not say we have been sanctified or made holy through the "sacrifice" of the body of Jesus. Then in verse 12 we have Jesus offering a single sacrifice for all sins. Then in verse 14 we get a single offering.
There is no need to go on. Jesus did not become sin for us, He became a sin offering for us.Click to expand...
The variant for Rom. 8:3 has a footnote also.
Jesus bore our sins, true, however that in no way takes away the Greek that says he became sin for us. -
Reply to 12 Strings
12strings said: ↑You keep saying this. What is this mystical variant you keep referring too?
I see no problem with simply accepting that this one verse DOES say Jesus was made to be sin for us, in addition to being an offering for us.Click to expand...
In the Septuagint, hamartian is translated as sin or sin offering, and so the meaning appears to be sin offering in the context. Your view is often espoused by Calvinists, whereas my view can be oft found among Arminians.
Here is a blurb in support of my view:
"In summary, let us keep in focus what Paul wrote before the "sin" statement. "All things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ . . . God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them . . . For he hath made him to be a [sin-offering], who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (II Corinthians 5:18, 19, 21).
From Redemption Realized Through Christ by Leland M. Haines"Click to expand... -
Van said: ↑I was apparently wrong to call it a variant, as if an alternate Greek word appeared in some texts. Rather the word that does appear, hamartian, can be translated either as "sin" or as sin offering depending on context. The NIV footnote reads "or sin offering" and that apparently is code (the "or") for an alternate translation choice.
In the Septuagint, hamartian is translated as sin or sin offering, and so the meaning appears to be sin offering in the context. Your view is often espoused by Calvinists, whereas my view can be oft found among Arminians.
Here is a blurb in support of my view:
"In summary, let us keep in focus what Paul wrote before the "sin" statement. "All things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ . . . God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them . . . For he hath made him to be a [sin-offering], who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (II Corinthians 5:18, 19, 21).
From Redemption Realized Through Christ by Leland M. Haines"Click to expand...
It is also foretold in Leviticus 16 how Jesus was compared to a goat who Aaron would lay his hands upon the goat's head, and confess all the sins of Israel, and then be led away by a fit man. That was a "type" of Christ in the OT. He became a "goat", or sin, for us, eventhough He knew no sin. -
Van said: ↑12strings said: ↑I was apparently wrong to call it a variant, as if an alternate Greek word appeared in some texts. Rather the word that does appear, hamartian, can be translated either as "sin" or as sin offering depending on context. The NIV footnote reads "or sin offering" and that apparently is code (the "or") for an alternate translation choice.
In the Septuagint, hamartian is translated as sin or sin offering, and so the meaning appears to be sin offering in the context. Your view is often espoused by Calvinists, whereas my view can be oft found among Arminians.
Here is a blurb in support of my view:
"In summary, let us keep in focus what Paul wrote before the "sin" statement. "All things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ . . . God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them . . . For he hath made him to be a [sin-offering], who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (II Corinthians 5:18, 19, 21).
From Redemption Realized Through Christ by Leland M. Haines"Click to expand...
I simply find it odd, if "sin offering" is the correct translation, why the expert scholars of EVERY major translation of the Bible have decided to go with the WRONG one! Are you saying that though every major translation of the bible says "he became sin" or "was made to be sin" for us...that in fact it is not true...That they all have it wrong?
I have yet to find a preacher who would stand up in his pulpit and say not just "this verse is misstranslated in the ____ version...this other version gets it right." ....but to say "I know this verse says one thing, but you see, every bible translation we have has missed it...here is the correct translation...what these bibles say isn't even true.
***Caveat: The NLT does say "For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin,. However, The NLT is not one the translations considered to be the most literal, but rather a translation that leans in the direction of though-for-thought, and so no scholars I know use it as a source to correct miss-translations in other, older, more literal translations.Click to expand... -
freeatlast said: ↑No you are not getting it! A Christian cannot practice sin. A Christian cannot fall into the practice of sin. It is impossible because the seed of God remains in them and they cannot practice sin.
1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.
We are kept from the practice of sin by the seed of God. We are left to get rid of any sin we might do. Our practice is to live righteously. We might sin from time to time but it is not our practice.Click to expand...
Why should we believe that 1 John 3:9 should be understood as saying that "he cannot (practice) sin"?
I believe that John meant "he cannot sin" because we see him saying the following later in the same epistle:
"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not" (1 Jn.5:18).Thanks!
-
Hi 12 Strings, recall that only one translation choice of one verse says sin, the other translation choice says sin offering, and many other verses say sin offering whereas no other verse say Jesus became sin.
So rather than point to all the translations that chose sin, which creates a paradox, how could Jesus be sin if He was a sinless sacrifice.
I often get into trouble because I point out that the majority view does not agree with the bible contextually considered, and this is another case. As a minimalist, what is the minimum Paul is teaching? That Jesus became a sin offering. To go beyond that based on one translation choice of one verse is unsound to the extreme. -
Van said: ↑Hi 12 Strings, recall that only one translation choice of one verse says sin, the other translation choice says sin offering, and many other verses say sin offering whereas no other verse say Jesus became sin.Click to expand...
So rather than point to all the translations that chose sin, which creates a paradox, how could Jesus be sin if He was a sinless sacrifice.Click to expand...
I often get into trouble because I point out that the majority view does not agree with the bible contextually considered, and this is another case. As a minimalist, what is the minimum Paul is teaching? That Jesus became a sin offering. To go beyond that based on one translation choice of one verse is unsound to the extreme.Click to expand...Click to expand... -
Hi 12 Strings, I do not think your "nearly every biblcal and language expert agrees" statement is valid. If you read the commentaries of Barnes and Clark, they present well studied views in total agreement with me. Remember the concept concordance. Over 90 times that same word is translated sin offering or offering for sin in the Septuigint. Which is to say a Hebrew word or phrase, which is translated into English as sin offering or offering for sin, is translated into the word found in 2 Corinthians 5:21. So a concordant translation, where the same idea is translated in the same way would read sin offering or offering for sin.
Here is the link to Barnes and others: http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/5-21.htm
Page 4 of 5