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Is the Penal Substitution Theory the most common theory throughout history?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, Mar 6, 2018.

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  1. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Well I'll leave at Isaiah 53 which in the Book of Acts declares to be an account of the crucifixion:

    Those passages being:

    5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
    6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
    7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
    8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
    9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
    10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
    11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.


    Jesus in fulfillment:
    Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Did Jesus Lie?
     
  2. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    The context certainly does not demand that "propitiation" be defined as "bearing wrath". In fact, I am not even sure that the context supports that "interpretation".

    But I am open to you showing us how the context of 1 John 2:2 "demands" that "propitiation" be defined as "bearing wrath".

    Have at it -


    1 John 1:5-2:6
    5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
    6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
    7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
    8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
    9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
    1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
    2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
    3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
    4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
    5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
    6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
     
  3. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Six Hour Warning
    This thread will be closed sometime after 11 PM Pacific.
     
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  4. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I don’t mind discussion.

    But when what I share is ridiculed, then that limits discussion.

    Can you find any OT prophecy, and any OT type in which models the suffering Messiah shown as the wrath of God poured out upon Him on the cross?

    How about any NT statement?

    Surely, for such to be the truth, the OT would abound with both prophetic and types as examples. Other major and even minor aspects of the crucifixion were expressed and exampled.

    Surely, the statements of Christ, the apostles, and other writings in the NT would clearly and plainly set forth statements of support. For the death was of great consequence, and what greater then the total extinguishment of God’s wrath?

    Such just doesn’t occur.


    And this theory is claimed as Scriptural when in fact it has no true Scriptural support?
     
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  5. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I highly respect the posts of Archangel.

    But on how he presented propitiation, he was incorrect.

    Penal Substitution Theory is not drawn from Scripture.

    That is why it remains a theory and will never raise to the level of Doctrine such as virgin birth.

    Some may cling to the theory as if it is, but such is just exuberance and then bias.
     
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  6. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    I presented the same “presentation” as Dr. Tom Schreiner, DA Carson, JI Packer, RC Sproul and countless others. Nothing of what I presented is original to me. So, you you suggest I am mistaken, these same people must be mistaken, too.

    The Archangel


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  7. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    This is not true. I have Schreiner's commentary on my desk.

    Tom Schreiber states that the appeasement of God's wrath is accomplished through the blood of His Son. He does not define propitiation as "bearing wrath".
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    D.A. Carson defines propitiation as "averting the wrath of God", not "bearing wrath".

    He may believe Christ bore God's wrath, but Carson does not seem to see the word as holding that definition. (Reference "Scandalous").
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I know Sproul also believes Christ experienced God's wrath. But you are wrong that he defines propitiation as "bearing wrath", or that its use necessitates that as a definition.

    www.ligonier.org/blog/two-important-words-good-friday-expiation-and-propitiation/
     
  10. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    I've had several private conversations with him. In our talks he spoke favorably about Christ bearing God's wrath.

    The Archangel
     
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  11. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Referring to this and all... You're separating lexicon from usage, again. What they describe--bearing God's wrath--is what the word ultimately means. At this point I could say the sky is blue and you'd disagree. You simply are wrong to hold to the lexicon over and against usage.

    In my M.Div study, I took an entire class for an entire semester on the theology of the atonement. It was a great class, actually, and we studied all the historical theology, all the linguistics, etc. So... while you may not agree with my assessment (and the assessment of the others I've cited), don't you dare for an instant suggest I don't know what I'm talking about. And, don't you dare again question my integrity by suggesting I am dishonest.

    The Archangel
     
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  12. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    As far as I know all who hold to Penal Substitution Theory believes that Jesus bore God's wrath. This would include (probably) all you mentioned. But that was not the issue.

    The issue was faithfulness to the text.

    For example, Carson believes in limited atonement. But he does not read this into 1 John 2:2 (he reads "world" as all mankind, a universal offer).

    Your first claim was that "propitiation" is defined as "bearing wrath". Then you changed to the context of 1 John 2:2 demanded that meaning. In both cases your claim is not faithful to the text.
     
  13. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Again, you are hung on the lexicon. What a word means is not found only in the lexicon. How and in what manner (what it refers to, etc.) is the ultimate determiner of meaning. Therefore, what the word means in its biblical usage is bearing God's wrath. That's what I've been saying, that's what those I've cited have been saying, get your head out of your... lexicon... and quit your pugilistic obtuseness!

    The Archangel
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Why not? You dare to claim I don't know what I am talking about...And My graduate studies were concentrated on theology (not a MDiv, where you may take one class on the Atonement).

    If you still insist the text of 1 John demands that propitiation means "wrath bearing" then i have every right to claim you do not know what you are talking about. Such is being dishonest with the biblical text.

    Now, if you wanted to actually discuss the theories, that would be different. But it appears from your comments that you are having difficulty separating Scripture from systematic theology.
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I am speaking on the entire context of 1 John to define "propitiation" (the determining factor is just prior to 2:2, BTW).

    It is one thing to present Scripture to defend PST. It is another to see your theory of how Christ propitiated our sins as being demanded by the text of 1 John.
     
  16. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    I'm not being dishonest with the text.

    And.... Do you have any idea what went into my M.Div? I have well over 100 post-graduate credits including years of studying theology, not just one class. Don't belittle my studies in your attempts at self-superiority, when you have no idea what I've studied.
     
  17. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    And I'm talking all of scripture, which is part of the context of 1 John 2:2, BTW.

    And... I'm still trying to figure out how you--a moderator, no less--can get away with calling someone dishonest....

    The Archangel
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Yes, I do know what goes into an accredited MDiv. I am not belittling your studies any more than you are belittling my degrees.

    My comment was that my degree was in theology. You will study some theology but also pastoral studies, counseling, sermon prep, etc. (Some of which I wish I had studied).

    Basically, if you cannot understand why 1 John does not demand the definition of "bearing wrath" then I question the worth of your degrees. We are talking elementary things here, brother, not graduate debates but being faithful to the text.
     
  19. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Again... a false accusation.. In what way have I belittled your degrees? Show where I did that.

    The Archangel
     
  20. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Many MA degrees are in the 50-60 credit range. My M.Div was a minimum 91-credit degree. We do study counseling, sermon, prep, etc. but it is only after we have taken the full course (not "some") of theology. The "pastoral studies" are added on to what might be the regular fare for an MA. So, it's likely that my M.Div is at least as robust theologically as your MA.

    The Archangel
     
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