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Featured Is there some or is it none, no one or someone?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Jan 1, 2019.

  1. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Romans 3 is quoting the OT. But what passage of the old testiment?

    “None is righteous, no, not one;
    11no one understands;
    no one seeks for God.
    12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
    no one does good,
    not even one.”
    13“Their throat is an open grave;
    they use their tongues to deceive.”
    “The venom of asps is under their lips.”
    14“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
    15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    16in their paths are ruin and misery,
    17and the way of peace they have not known.”
    18“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
    Perhaps the author of Romans is quoting from various sources, combining multiple sources into a single line of reasoning?

    How is it that some would, in light of the total quote above, find the human free will of its own innate volition acapable of expressing a human faith value sufficiently righteous enough to gainior reject salvation?

    Does not John 1 clearly state that such is not in the ability of human will?

    Is it correct to assume that this section of Scripture must in some manner be modified or rejected that there can be free will choice which allows the nonbeliever to choose righteousness?

    Was the writer of this passage not declaring the fallen condition of the both the Jews and Gentiles?

    Is it a false gospel to teach freedom of choice and not in effect refute this passage?

    Must not the embracing of free will oblige one to disregard or in some manner modify Romans 3?
     
  2. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?
    There is not one.” Job 14
     
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  3. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Your study bible should have a cross reference for each OT quote.
    Mine is still in my car and I'm too lazy to go out and get it. :)
     
  4. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Your study bible should have a cross reference for each OT quote.
    Mine is still in my car and I'm too lazy to go out and get it. :)
     
  5. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    I have a feeling you're referring to mainly Romans 3:10-18-ish, since that is what I see you posting above.

    "as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
    11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
    12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
    13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
    14 whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
    15 their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
    16 destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
    17 and the way of peace have they not known:
    18 there is no fear of God before their eyes."
    ( Romans 3:10-18 )

    Mostly the Psalms.
    As I see it, Paul was inspired by the Lord here, to quote an amalgamation of that which He had revealed to His prophets, of which David was one ( Acts of the Apostles 2:29-31 ).

    Here are some of the Psalms that I believe are condensed into Romans 3:10-18:

    Psalms 10.
    Psalms 14:1-3. <------ David.
    Psalms 36:1-4. <-------David.
    Psalms 53:1-3

    It really is written...
    It just takes a bit of digging. :)
     
    #5 Dave Gilbert, Jan 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
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  6. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    Good question...

    John 1:13, Romans 9:16.

    From my perspective, it doesn't get modified, it either gets ignored or disbelieved.
    To me, the words are plain.

    Yes, and he precedes that by stating this:

    " What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; " ( Romans 3:9 )

    Many would say that, yes.

    Same answer for this quote:

     
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  7. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    No, sir, it needs no modification. It simply needs to be understood.

    I'll let Jesus Himself answer this one:
    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth [chooses to believe] in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18 He that believeth
    [chooses to believe] on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not [chooses not to believe] is condemned already, [why?] because he hath not believed [chose not to believe] in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [Wouldn't this have been a great time for Jesus to teach Nicodemus about election?]
    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light [they chose darkness (unbelief) over light (belief)], because their deeds were evil.
    20 For every one that doeth evil
    [chooses to do evil] hateth the light, neither cometh to the light[chooses not to come to the light], lest his deeds should be reproved.
    21 But he that doeth truth [chooses to do truth] cometh to the light [chooses to come to the light], that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (KJV)

    Jesus is clearly, unmistakably declaring that man has a free will and can be saved if he so chooses to believe and be saved. He is clearly teaching that the lost man has chosen to be lost because of his failure to believe. He says nothing about being elect or non-elect.

    So, unless you believe that Jesus is teaching a false gospel, or disregarding or modifying Romans 3, there must be something else that needs to be understood about that passage.
     
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  8. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    Sir,
    Even though you have not addressed me in your post above, I would ask for the privilege of answering... and in doing so I'll intersperse my replies within the body of your text in red:

    I agree with the underlined, and also recognize that your understanding of "chooses to believe" is what is at work, in John 3.

    But to me, there is something else about John 3 that I think needs to be understood from what Jesus has revealed in the rest of Scripture.
    The way I see it, you are assuming that a person chooses to believe, when I see nothing in either passage, or from the rest of Scripture, that declares that a man can and does choose to believe.

    However, Scripture does declare that there are reasons that men believe.

    For example:

    " Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." ( John 6:29 )
    So, here Jesus reveals more information on why people believe...because it is a work of God to believe on Him.

    " And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
    36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. ( John 6:35-40 )

    Here the Lord refers, in verse 35, to coming to Him and believing on Him...As I see it, they are the same thing.

    In verse 36, He tells the Jews that they have also seen Him, and have not believed.
    He then tells them why:
    Because all that the Father gives to Him ( John 6:65, John 17:2 ) shall come to Him.

    Incidentally, in John 5:40, He tells the Pharisees that they will not come to Him; which means, to me, that they choose not to.

    How does one come to / believe on, Christ?
    They must be given to Him by His Father.

    No one who is not given to Jesus by the Father, will believe on Him.
    Why?
    Romans 3:10-18.

    Tack on 1 Corinthians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 2, and 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 and hopefully that will help to explain why men will not come to Christ without God causing it.

    If it takes being given to Christ by His Father for someone to come to Him / believe on Him, then the reason people do not choose to come to Him, is that they were not given to Him by His Father ( John 6:64-65, John 17:2.
    The foundation of Nicodemus's belief is what Christ later reveals just 3 chapters away in John 6. ;)

    The way I see it, the declarations of Romans 3:10-18 have to be modified, in a person's mind, in order to get the ability to "choose to believe" out of John 3.
    In other words, that "choice to believe" must be brought into John 3 from somewhere else, because nowhere does it specifically declare that believing is by choice.


    May God, in His wisdom and grace, grant you many blessings.:)
     
    #8 Dave Gilbert, Jan 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
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  9. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    However, in the Greek language, there is nothing to even suggest "choose to believe" is a valid translation.

    "Whosoever" - is not a word of choice but a word meaning the results of something that is done.

    "...that everyone who believes..." results in eternal life.

    NOT "...everyone who (chooses) to believe..."

    John 3:16 is not an offer of salvation, but rather the results - as seen in the context of the following verses of 17 through 21.

    Further, the word "believes" is the same word as used for "faith" and does not Paul state that "faith" is not of your own self it is the gift of God?

    And does not John 1 state that
    12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

    It is inconsistent with the author of the writing of John to insert "choose" into John 3:16.

    Romans 3 states:
    21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
    Again, there is no offer to choose, but that the gift of "unmerited favor" is granted because of the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.
     
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  10. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    I have often used this passage to declare the exact opposite of what you assert here.
    John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
    (KJV)

    Jesus' answer is, "The only work you can do that constitute being the works of God is to "believe" on Me." That is a firm declaration of the free will of man.

    The rest of your post, in my opinion, is simply interpretations from your point of view on the matter (as are mine, I'm sure). We've discussed them ad nauseum in the past.

    You, as well, my friend.
     
  11. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Consider all the times in the gospels that an individual was healed. Almost exclusively, Jesus says something to the effect, "According to your faith, be it so" or, "If you can believe you may..." Faith, in the New Testament, is always a proactive faith that one exercises. Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

    I disagree. "Received Him" is a choice. "Believe on His name" is a choice.

    John 1:13 Which were born:
    • not of blood - one does not inherit salvation - it is not passed down through the blood line.
    • nor of the will of the flesh - one cannot be saved any way one wants (works, etc.) - salvation comes only God's way.
    • nor of the will of man - I cannot save my children or grandchildren regardless of how badly I want to see them saved.
    • but of God - God alone grants salvation and He does so on the basis of repentance and faith - both free will choices.

    Romans 3 states:
    21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
    Again, there is no offer to choose, but that the gift of "unmerited favor" is granted because of the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.[/QUOTE]

    This passage in no way refutes free will. I whole-heartedly agree that salvation is a gift of God which no one, myself most of all, can deserve. It is all the grace of God and is totally dependent upon our accepting of His great plan of salvation.

    "And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Free will explained very clearly.
     
  12. OnlyaSinner

    OnlyaSinner Active Member
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    John 3:16 is my favorite verse (among many, with Acts 2:23 next) that illustrate - to my understanding, weak as it is - both the sovereignty of God and the free will of man. "Gave" represents God's full sovereignty over His creation. "Believe" is an act of will, unless it's coerced, like with Winston Smith in 1984. Though we cannot choose to believe without the Holy Spirit working in our heart, it's not an Orwellian "belief" IMO.
     
  13. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    John 1 states it is not the act of will.

    Do you agree with John 1?
     
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  14. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    This passage in no way refutes free will. I whole-heartedly agree that salvation is a gift of God which no one, myself most of all, can deserve. It is all the grace of God and is totally dependent upon our accepting of His great plan of salvation.

    "And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Free will explained very clearly.[/QUOTE]

    John one is not saying your expression of will to save others, but to save your self.

    Either salvation is presented with the Author being God through Christ or not.
     
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  15. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    We shouldn't forget one thing.

    What in this world matters to those of us who possess faith!?

    Or what should it matter!? Is there anything?

    Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

    Thank you, Lord, for saving my soul
    Thank you, Lord, for making me whole
    Thank you, Lord, for giving to me
    Thy great salvation so rich and free

    Thank You, Lord (for saving my soul)
     
    #15 HankD, Jan 4, 2019
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  16. OnlyaSinner

    OnlyaSinner Active Member
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    Absolutely. I also think that true belief involves the will, or at least the perception of will, otherwise it would be brainwashing. (Orwell, again) One description of that perception that I like holds that salvation is like a door, which on the outside says, "Whosoever will, may come." Seen from the inside, "Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world."
     
  17. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    I apologize, Brother. I messed up the quotes in an above post and it subsequently messed up your post as well. It is now too late for me to fix it.

    Salvation is most assuredly presented with the Author being God through Christ. God, before the foundations of the world were ever laid, determined the means to redeem sinful man back to Him. He choose to do so through the sacrifice of His own dear Son. He has set the conditions of that salvation as our repentance (from sin) toward God and faith (in that sacrifice) toward our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21).

    Where we differ is that I believe that He extends this invitation to all mankind freely and has not predetermined man's eternal destiny independent of man's free will. He has, however, predetermined man's eternal destiny based upon man's free will. He has predetermined that all who accept the invitation to receive Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour will be saved (John 1:12). He has predetermined that all who reject His merciful and gracious offer of salvation will not be saved (John 3:18).
     
  18. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Not a problem with the quotes. I didn't notice until I got home, and it was in-correctable then, too.

    I started a thread on "Freedom of the Will" which you might be better able to contend for your thinking.

    I don't (though I used too) hold to such freedom of the will thinking. However, I do look at the arguments on both sides that are raised. But more, I look for Scriptures that can change my opinions.



    Paul presented in Romans the combating that takes place between the old and new "wills." and from other passages, also, I was forced into concluding that a new "core value" is instilled into the person. This is not to split salvation into elements that can be parceled into which comes first and who is on second with when on third.... :)

    Do we not all experience that very battle of the "wills" as Paul described?

    Certainly, if Paul had two wills (two natures) in conflict (Romans 7) then the old will is not modified, not changed, not "made willing" but supplanted by a more powerful and righteous will.

    Therefore, it remains impossible for the "old will" to accept the things of Christ, but continually combat and daily brought under subjection.

    That makes it impossible for the "old will" to be enlightened to the point of belief.

    It also makes it impossible for anything of this earthly to gain that which is eternal. For the Scripture teaches that we are a "new creation" and that "old things have passed away - all becomes new"

    Check out the other thread, and add Scripture support for your thinking. I look forward to an even more sharply defined approach to this matter.

    On the other matter of the offer made to all - freely.

    The draw to Christ is certainly a part of Scriptures. However, what is offered in the drawing may not be what some express.

    For example: Christ drew all people during His ministry on earth. The religious self righteous, the writers, the political astute, the rebellious, the .... He drew great crowds and individual inquirers. But, whom did He choose?

    Look at this portion of John 12:
    31“Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” 33But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. 34The crowd then answered Him, “We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?” 35So Jesus said to them, “For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.”

    Christ is not saying that the Cross would bring a drawing of all, for then it would stand in conflict to Paul's statement that the preaching of the cross "was folly (foolishness) to the unbelieving."
    And besides, who wants to be drawn to persecution for that is certainly what Paul stated believers will bear.

    What Christ is stating is that type of death He would die, that the lifting up would not bring the offer of salvation to all people, but that by being lifted up that He was the victor over the authority of Satan. That being the Light those that walk in the light "may become the sons of the light" - that which John states in the opening chapter of his account.

    Salvation is free. Certainly.

    There is no restriction to present the offer of salvation as free to all. Certainly.

    But as is recorded in the book of Acts:
    "And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." (Those who were being delivered, those rescued)

    It is important that the emphasis remain upon the authority of God being the one who delivered, rescued, saved.

    The word "such" is specific - "That one," and "This one." It emphasizes the specific persons selected.

    The character of the early church was that of "having favor with all men."

    However, do you think that the forces of Satan were not involved from the earliest moment - was not even one disciple have Satan in the heart?

    The Scriptures are very clear even at this to state "in favor of all" as separate from "and God added..."

    Salvation is freely offered to all, but not all are redeemed, there are others that look and act but are not.

    Richard Wurmbrand said that while imprisoned he met those who were believers and also those who thought they were believers.

    The earliest church was filled, certainly.

    It was filled with both the wheat of God's planting, and the tares of the enemy's planting. Both looked the same, until the time of harvest.
     
    #18 agedman, Jan 4, 2019
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  19. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps there is no "brain washing" but a totally new creation - as Paul states.

    There is not a single smidgen of the "old nature" or the "flesh" that enters heaven. That includes that fallen will.

    "Whosoever will, may come..." but did you notice there are conditions to whosoever will?

    If one is "chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world" then that person is opposite of those who John 3 states are "condemned already."
     
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  20. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    I would state that it definitely involves the will. ;)

    The target of salvation is men...the result of salvation is a changed nature, which results in a changed will..
    The complete opposite of Romans 3:10-18.:)
     
    #20 Dave Gilbert, Jan 4, 2019
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