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Featured Is there some or is it none, no one or someone?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Jan 1, 2019.

  1. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    There is another possibility: Those who are pretenders and are fully aware of it.
     
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Then they are not a "whosoever will".
     
  3. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Psalm 14:3, Psalm 53:3

    Psalms 14:3 (NASB) They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

    Psalms 53:3 (NASB) Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
     
  4. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    This might be true if faith had a direct impact on righteousness. It does not. Faith leads indirectly to righteousness. Faith qualifies us for human adoption into the family of Abraham. The spiritual descendants of Abraham then INHERIT righteousness. We are not given righteousness for our faith. Those who have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had are the spiritual descendants of Abraham. Therefore, salvation is INDIRECT. That means both Calvin and Arminius had it very wrong... they both assumed salvation was direct (that you were given righteousness in direct response to faith).

    The OT chapter that deals with the choice of salvation is Deuteronomy 30:

    Deuteronomy 30:1
    So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,

    Deuteronomy 30:6
    Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

    Deuteronomy 30:11
    For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
    12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?


    Deuteronomy 30:15
    See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

    Deuteronomy 30:19
    I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

    So we know by this section of scripture that free will is a bit of a misnomer. It seems God has given mankind a distinct, binary choice - choose life or choose death. It says it is not too difficult for us to choose and it is not a choice made by God in heaven. I think of it like this: if I give my child the choice between pancakes or waffles for breakfast, I have given them a binary choice. They don't have complete free will (they can't for example choose steak and eggs), but within the limitations I've given them, they do have some leeway.

    Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the Life." In essence, choosing to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ is how we choose life.

    Deu 30:19 above says "I call heaven and earth to witness" the choice. This is echoed in Romans 8:

    Rom 8:16-17 NASB -
    16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]​

    The Spirit Himself (heaven) testifies (bears witness) with our spirit (earth) of the choice we make. By making the choice, we qualify as fellow heirs with Christ of His righteousness.
     
  5. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    " Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." ( Hebrews 11:1 )
     
  6. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    If you hope for something, it means you do not have it. If you do not see something, how can it be evident? Faith is that which stands in the place of that which you do not posses and looks forward to the time when you do.

    Faith in the gospel is trust in the good news of Jesus Christ in spite of not having righteousness or seeing life, in spite of our knowledge of sin & our experience of suffering & death. It is belief in a future state which does not conform with the current state of reality.
     
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    When someone asks "what proof do you have for the resurrection and your hope of eternal life?" My faith in God and His promise.
    Not in the uncertainties of empirical science.
     
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  8. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    I both have it, and hope for it.;)

    I hope to meet the Lord face to face one day, and inherit that which He has promised me from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:18, Colossians 1:12, 1 Peter 1:3-5 ).
    To walk and talk with Him, face to face.
    My faith is the evidence of His gift of eternal life ( John 17:3 )...not the means whereby I can gain it.

    I have eternal life ( John 5:24 ), and I have faith, which is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ).

    Which brings us back to this one:

    I agree.
    The faith He gave me is evidence that I have what He gave me...

    Eternal life, which is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ), not a reward.:)

    I don't need to see Jesus Christ to have faith, but I do need to "see" Jesus Christ to have faith ( Matthew 13:16 ).

    In a way, I agree.

    I partially agree.
    Faith in the Gospel is the trust in the good news of Jesus Christ, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
    I have His righteousness imputed to me, and I see eternal life distantly, as well as possess it right now.

    I have the "earnest" ( down-payment ) of my inheritance with me right now ( Ephesians 1:13-14 ).

    The future state is what I hope for...
    The promise of that future state is what I now have.

    My faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of my possessing that future state.;)


    Because I recognize that I am nothing but what is described in Romans 3:10-18 outside of His miraculous power to change my heart, I appreciate all the more His gifts of both faith, and eternal life ( John 3:27, 1 Corinthians 4:7 ).:)
     
    #28 Dave Gilbert, Jan 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
  9. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    When people ask this, I say that Jesus has 4 gospels which bear witness to His resurrection. Since He was raised by the same covenant that we are, we have a “reliable cloud of witnesses” which gives us assurance that the covenant of faith is effective.

    Hebrews 13:20 (NASB)
    Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, [even] Jesus our Lord,

    Hebrews 12:1 (NASB)
    Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
     
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  10. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Perhaps you are the first Christian in history to obtain eternal life prior to being resurrected, but I doubt it.

    Philippians 3:12 (NASB)
    Not that I have already obtained [it] or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

    What we have obtained is the promise of eternal life after the resurrection of all mankind.

    Yet you will die one day, so you have not obtained it. Your faith is evidence in so much that it stands in the place of all the evidence to the contrary (the fact that you suffer & will die).

    You are qualified for eternal life through righteousness, but you have not yet obtained eternal life.

    In Ephesians 2:8, the phrase “through faith”, “by grace” and “it is the gift of God” are modifiers of the phrase “you have been saved.” Your interpretation eliminates the subject of the sentence (you) and the predicate (have been saved). Your interpretation makes faith itself the subject. “Faith has been saved by grace” is nonsensical.

    . Yes, life is the gift, not faith.

    Romans 6:23 (NASB) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Life & death... where have I heard these before?

    Deuteronomy 30:19 (NASB) "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

    I agree with most of this. Yes, as it pertains to the spirit. No as it pertains to the flesh:

    Romans 8:10 (NASB) If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

    I agree.
     
  11. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    I agree with your response to this poster. The people were asking Jesus what THEY were to do. What is the work? I can't believe Jesus would express this with different way of thinking without clearly stating he was doing so.

    If Jesus was going to introduce a whole different direction of thought, and we ALL must agree was what WORK are WE TO DO, Jesus would have stopped and clearly clarified it wasn't that they were to do anything. He would have injected something like, "It's not your work, it is the work of God."

    We see such a clarity line in a different subject when Jesus changed a direction of thought in Mark 9: 21-23 we it states,

    Jesus asked the boy’s father, “How long has he been like this?”
    From childhood,” he answered. It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us.”If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for one who believes. Mk 9:21

    I think this demonstrates that IF there was a different way of thinking people needed to have about the issue he would clearly have stated there was. And that Jesus (God) knew that some day people would be reading this as text I think guarantees he would have.
     
  12. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    I didn't "obtain it" in the active sense, I "obtained it" in the passive sense.
    My notification was the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    " He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." ( John 3:36 )

    He that believes, has ( present tense ) eternal life...not "will have".
    Yes, there is a sense in which the believer will have, but the promise is for now.

    " For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." ( 1 Corinthians 13:12 )
    As believers, we "know" Him, but not as clearly as we will know Him when we see Him.

    That's what I'm referring to above, when it contrasts knowing Him in part, and then face to face.

    I explained this above.
    There's nothing standing in the way of me having eternal life with God...it's a "done deal" ( Romans 8:31-39, 1 Peter 1:5 ).
    Belief of the Gospel is the proof that He has saved me.
    As you stated above, and I agree with, John Calvin and Jakob Hermanszoon ( "Arminius ) both erred when (if?) they taught that salvation was a direct response to faith...instead of teaching that faith is the evidence of God's work of saving someone.

    " Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." ( John 5:24 )

    He that "hears" Christ's word, and believes on the Father ( Him that sent Him ), has ( present tense ) eternal life.
    They also have this promise...they shall not come into condemnation ( judgment for their sins ), but IS passed ( present tense ) from death to life, spiritually.

    The subject "saved by grace" is "ye".
    "Faith" is the subject of "that not of yourselves", the nearest noun to the possessive pronoun, "that".
    That is how I see it.

    Faith is also a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ), and someone who does not have the Spirit, does not have faith.

    As in other threads where this has come up, God through His prophet Moses is speaking to Israel here, not to all men.
    He's speaking to the recipients of His earthly covenant, which He initiated with the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, for their sake.



    I wish you well, sir.:)
     
    #32 Dave Gilbert, Jan 5, 2019
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  13. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    That's is precisely what He is doing. ;)

    " who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, " ( 2 Timothy 1:9 )

    Other Scriptures ( Ephesians 2:9, Titus 3:5-6 ) clarify it.

    Modification of Romans 3:10-18 then becomes necessary, from my perspective, in order to justify how men can seemingly believe, outside of God causing it...No one seeks God in and of himself.

    There is no work to do...it's all of grace...His work.
    Salvation is "of the Lord".
    It originates with Him, and is completed in Him...Jesus Christ is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the ending.


    Eternal life is an amazing gift, given mankind's utterly helpless and hopeless condition before Him, isn't it? :)
     
    #33 Dave Gilbert, Jan 5, 2019
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  14. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    Now I knew Dave that you or somebody else was going to quote those verses written by Paul many, many years later but those verses were about people trying to be saved by the keeping of the law. That's how Paul defines the "works" theme he writes about. Of course you're going to reject this but it most certainly doesn't change my mind about it.

    Simply believing in Christ IS NOT the trying to be saved by keeping the law of Moses. And again swinging back to what Jesus told these people are we to believe then that the people to whom Jesus spoke this to would have to wait many years, to receive the clarification? Nope.

    Like I suggested the direction and theme of "what work are we to do?" was going that direction and Jesus DID NOT add a qualifier and seek to change it. He told them the work that they needed to do could be summed up in simply believing on him. Of course some here won't accept that but that's the only way I can see it could be.
     
  15. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    Rockson,
    If all a person has to do is to believe on Jesus Christ ( unassisted by God ) to be saved , what do you believe is being accomplished by the Lord when He reveals Scripture that has to do with God choosing someone?

    Do you understand the passages on choosing as being conditioned by belief, or belief being conditioned by choosing?

    Here's one I was raised from the age of twelve on:

    " and brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
    " ( Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31 )

    But we're told earlier in Acts, this important fact:

    " And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 )

    With this in mind, what do you think Acts 13:48 means?
    I've never really gotten your take on it.

    Admittedly, I'm curious as to what you see.
     
    #35 Dave Gilbert, Jan 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
  16. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

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    Did I say one is not moved upon God to be saved in the absolute sense of the word? Armininans believe in prevenient grace which means God works to enlighten and inspire all to be saved.

    Depends on the context. It can mean chosen to a particular ministry and not all are chosen to be say an Apostle which has nothing to do with salvation. And chosen can be chosen because it's talking about the characteristics of what God preordained would lead ones be predesignated to be conformed to the image of his Son.

    Acts 13:48 doesn't say anything about being pre-ordained but it says ordained. Ordained simply means, decree, rule, establish or pronounce and there's no reason that can't mean ordained in the moments of their real time because they where obedient to the faith. When it's said elders over the church likewise were ordained such doesn't mean at the foundation of the earth but ordained because in real time they were showing leadership qualities.
     
  17. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    No, you didn't.:Wink

    So you consider yourself an "Arminian" then...
    OK.
    I suppose I've wanted that cleared up for me for quite awhile; Thanks for clarifying.

    Here's the problem with "Prevenient Grace" in my estimation...based on His word, whoever God works on in the power of His Spirit, will come to Him ( John 6:36-40 ).
    He tells us in the book of John that all that are drawn will be raised up ( John 6:44 ), all that are given to Christ ( John 6:39-40, John 6:64-65, John 17:2 ) shall come to Him.
    There is no modicum of "chance" anywhere in the process, according to His word.
    God is not held back by anything, in that He is unable to save those that He is willing to save ( Isaiah 59:1 ), and God is not a man that anything He chooses to do gets thwarted ( Numbers 23:19, Daniel 4:35 ).


    As I recall, I've made this statement before, in other threads:

    You and I have a totally different view of how far God's power to save actually goes based on our respective understandings of Scripture.
    It seems that your idea of His power extends exactly as far as man's will allows Him to go.
    Did the Lord somehow establish that boundary, or does man's understanding of Him establish that boundary?

    The reason I keep asking you that, is because I don't see Scripture anywhere declaring that man's will stops God at the threshold of saving someone for Himself.
    I see a very few passages that are understood as if to state that man's will can stop God from doing something, but never in saving someone.

    Sometimes I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at this idea...that mere man can stop God from doing something.:Cautious

    As you well know, I see an assumption being made about this subject and carried back into the Scriptures, not an outright declaration from His word.
    To me, it's far safer to trust declaration, than implication.
    Implication is nothing more than jumping to conclusions, and results in guesswork that cannot be backed up by clear declarations of His word.
    We as believers are not to rely on such things, sir.:(

    We are to trust the words on the page ( Proverbs 3:5-7 ) and commit our ways to Him.:)

    I agree, to an extent.
    God chooses some of His people to be ministers...Acts of the Apostles 9:15-16, Ephesians 4:11-12.
    In Ephesians 4, I see Him doing the giving, not men "giving themselves over" to the service of God.

    In the case of Romans 8:29, I agree.

    "Predestinated" there, means predestinated conformed to the image of His Son.
    "Predestinated" in Ephesians 1:5 means that He predestinated believers to the adoption of sons.
    "Predestinated" in Ephesians 1:11 means that He predestinated believers to an inheritance ( Romans 8:17, Colossians 3:24, 1 Peter 1:4 )...eternal life with Him and His Son ( John 17:3 ).

    Ordained to eternal life, yes.

    The ordination...
    "Appointing", "determining", "setting forth", "commissioning", is to eternal life.
    That is what is written on the page. :)
     
    #37 Dave Gilbert, Jan 6, 2019
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  18. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    Based on Romans 3:10-18 ( among others ), no man seeks God.

    So, to me, the question remains:
    How does one become obedient and have faith, when one doesn't seek God in all their ways?
    Does God, in the process of having the Gospel preached, enable all men to believe?

    "Arminians" / "Semi-Pelagians" / "Traditionalists" / "non-Calvinists" say that Romans 10:17 explains that...but one thing I notice in my reading, is that that passage is written to those that have already believed.
    The promise of faith is made to those that believe ( Romans 10:8-9 ), not to those that do not.
    Therefore, faith comes to those who end up believing, by the "hearing" of His word.
    Those that are ordained to eternal life, believe ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ); Those that are Christ's sheep, believe ( John 10:26 ); Those that His Father gives to His Son, come to Him ( Isaiah 8:18, Hebrews 2:13, John 6:44, John 6:64-65, John 17:2 ).

    Those that don't / aren't / not given, won't.;)

    Now...does Scripture tell us why some believe and why some do not?
    I just answered that above, and you don't seem to agree with it.:(

    From my perspective, "Arminians" / "Synergists" cannot show Scripture that provides that answer.
    Too many things end up being assumed, rather than proven by declaration of God's word.:Cautious

    God is the one who overcomes man's rebellious nature and makes what is described in Romans 3:10-18 null and void.
    God is the one who instills faith in His children, and God is the one who changes the heart so that a person will believe and confess him ( Romans 10:10 ).

    But he doesn't do it for everyone.

    Scripture tells us that those who are set over the church as elders, were chosen by God to do so...not because of their leadership qualities, but because God determined that those men should be given for that purpose, to edify the flock of God:

    " Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." ( Acts of the Apostles 20:28 )

    God's Spirit does the choosing, from among those that He has ordained to eternal life, and that He has chosen and caused to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 ).

    " For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure." ( Philippians 2:13 )

    God's Spirit works in His children to carry out His will for His own purposes, and they are willing to do His will when He calls them to it.
    He gives preachers, evangelists and so forth for the edifying of Christ's sheep...fits them for it.
    They don't fit themselves out to do it.;)

    God chose Paul to be the minister of the Gospel to the Gentiles, and Peter to be the minister of it to the Hebrews ( Galatians 2:7-8 ).
    They were fitted by God for the work they had to do.

    Proof?

    Peter was a fisherman, while Paul was a man who had studied at the feet of Gamaliel, sort of like "bible college".
    Both were ordained of God to their offices, and their "inherent leadership qualities" had nothing to do with it...both were chosen and caused to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 ), both had had Jesus Christ revealed to them ( Matthew 16:16-17 ) by God the Father, both were drawn to Christ by the Father ( John 6:44 ), both were given to Christ by the Father ( John 6:37-40, John 6:65, John 17:2 ) and both were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:3-13 ). :Cool

    Nothing in and of themselves them made them any more or less qualified to be saved, or even to serve the Lord.
    As I see it, what you have proposed since I first interacts with you here, is that something within a man or woman makes all the difference with regard to who is saved and who is not;
    Something within a man or woman is what makes them differ in regard to spiritual gifts and callings...
    To me, that couldn't be further from the truth.




    May God, in His grace, richly bless you, sir.:)
     
    #38 Dave Gilbert, Jan 6, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Every one who believes indeed chooses to believe. The reason Jesus stated, ". . . No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. . . ." -- John 6:44-45.

    ". . . And all thy children [shall be] taught of the LORD; . . ." -- Isaiah 54:13.

    Jesus says to those who choose not to believe, ". . . He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God. . . ." -- John 8:47.
     
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  20. MartyF

    MartyF Active Member

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    Yes

    How would someone believe that people can choose to have faith in Jesus given the quote from Romans?

    By reading the full letter to the Romans. (However, the grammar in your question is atrocious, so I rewrote it.)

    No

    No, but I would change "choose righteousness" with "choose to put faith in Jesus"

    That is not the point of John 1.

    Is it a false gospel to teach freedom of choice? No

    Freedom of choice does not refute John 1.

    No
     
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