Giving thanks for all God gives is good, but there is no reason to believe that He causes everything to happen. I seriously doubt a woman is thanking God for being raped, or a mother for her child being murdered in a drive by. The saying "everything happens for a reason" is just simply false and cannot be supported with scripture.
Is this biblical
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by freeatlast, Apr 26, 2012.
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Rather than saying God causes all things, I would say that all things are God's responsibility - but the execution of this responsibility is according to His own time table.
Ecclesiastes 3
1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
For this reason:
Philippians 2
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
HankD -
We either have a God who is in control or a god (small g is intentional) who is somehow out of control. I don't understand how a God who can cause all things to work together for good (no matter what the OP thinks) but is not responsible for the evil acts that His creation does. That's part of His ways are not our ways and that his ways are past finding out.
I'll live with the tension of that. I couldn't live with a god who is at the whims of evil people and somehow has to constantly be figuring out how to deal with situations. I'll stick with the Biblical God. -
HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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If one were to accept that reason is not behind everything that happens, then there would be an excuse for irrational-isms.
Tragedies and hurtful actions forced upon "innocent" victims then would not be crimes. The raper and drive by shooter could just claim irrational-ism is an excuse.
But, God (nor man unless your Muslim) offer such an excuse.
Did God know that Eve would be tempted and give the fruit to Adam?
Did God know that a certain bullet fired from some gun in Vietnam would strike down a cousin?
Did God know that a small bit of plaque would break off a blood vessel travel to the brain of my brother and he have a stroke?
Did God know that microscopic flu germ sitting on the hand of a friendly pew sitter would be spread around the assembly during meet and greet?
If the flowers in the field and sparrow in the garden are attended by God, how much more reason, full understanding, and ultimate purpose does He place when one meets all events of living.
"Chance" and "I didn't know" are not part of the character and nature of God.
The Scriptures teach in the Psalms that the Lord is the shepherd. The verses continue by showing that in EVERY aspect of life, living and even in death, He is intimately involved.
Bad things happen because of reason.
Good things happen because of reason.
The widow who gives from her heart the last she has because of reason.
The heathen farmer who planted and worked the soil that others will come and destroy he, his whole family, and reap and benefit of his labor because of reason.
God is not irrational.
There is purpose and reason for every single "thing" under heaven. Ecclesiastes expresses this thinking. -
I once heard this statement:
"Has it ever occurred to you that nothing ever occurred to God?"
Personally, I don't make it a question of control because that's intuitive, a given and in that I agree.
However, the problem for us (or some of us) is the apparent randomness of evil events and the seemingly unresponsiveness of God (e.g. The Holocaust, Pol Pot slaughter, etc...).
He knows the end from the beginning and will deal with every thing at the appopriate time(s) the times of which He Himself has ordained the schedule.
Utimately He will "take care of business".
Matthew 13
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
HankD -
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I am Not saying that we can know Nothing of our God and Savior. I just believe that we (me, you, all of us) think we know more than we really do. It would do us, and those around us well to re-approach Him and His Word as ' little children, for such is the kingdom of heaven.' Not immaturely still needing milk, but as those mature ones who, nevertheless still realize that we don't know more than we do know. Those who are growing but still know that we are His children.
I am 55 years old. I became a Christian when I was 10. I can say that I have been a serious student of the Scriptures for those 45 years. I can also say that today I have more questions than answers. [The reason for my signature] -
HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Bad things happen because of reason.
Good things happen because of reason.Click to expand...
The widow who gives from her heart the last she has because of reason.Click to expand...
The heathen farmer who planted and worked the soil that others will come and destroy he, his whole family, and reap and benefit of his labor because of reason.Click to expand...
God is not irrational.Click to expand...
There is purpose and reason for every single "thing" under heaven. Ecclesiastes expresses this thinking.Click to expand..."purpose and reason"Click to expand...
Did God know that Eve would be tempted and give the fruit to Adam?
Did God know that a certain bullet fired from some gun in Vietnam would strike down a cousin?
Did God know that a small bit of plaque would break off a blood vessel travel to the brain of my brother and he have a stroke?
Did God know that microscopic flu germ sitting on the hand of a friendly pew sitter would be spread around the assembly during meet and greet?Click to expand...
If the flowers in the field and sparrow in the garden are attended by God,Click to expand...
how much more reason, full understanding, and ultimate purpose does He place when one meets all events of living.Click to expand... -
HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Just to throw this out:
The Beauty and wonder of Arminian Theology is that sin, for instance, has no purpose, it is merely that....Sin...as the Calvinist Theologian R.C. Sproul states: "It is the ultimate treason against God"....In Arminian Theology, God does not have to answer for this....he was against it....He neither intended it nor caused it. -
fortytworc said: ↑This question may be asking for us to understand more than our finite minds can understand an infinite Creator of the whole universe. While we pay lip service to the concept that "God's ways are not our ways...God is so far above us ...He is so 'Other' than us...We are like dumb sheep, like ants....His Incarnation is like us becoming ants in order to try to communicate with the ants what we know (science, math, relationships, emotions, philosophies, theology... our 'love' toward ants, why we became ants...) we then go on to explain how we have Him all figured out. His ways are not are ways, but I will now explain His ways. He is so far above us...Now listen to me as I bring Him down from His 'above' state...I think you get my point.
I am Not saying that we can know Nothing of our God and Savior. I just believe that we (me, you, all of us) think we know more than we really do. It would do us, and those around us well to re-approach Him and His Word as ' little children, for such is the kingdom of heaven.' Not immaturely still needing milk, but as those mature ones who, nevertheless still realize that we don't know more than we do know. Those who are growing but still know that we are His children.
I am 55 years old. I became a Christian when I was 10. I can say that I have been a serious student of the Scriptures for those 45 years. I can also say that today I have more questions than answers. [The reason for my signature]Click to expand...
Although I am not entirely sure of your point. Do I give you impressions otherwise from what you have stated? -
12strings said: ↑It does...it just says MORE than that. (of course depending on the translation, some say "God works all things together for good...more active...I'm not good enough at greek to know which one is correct.)Click to expand...
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HeirofSalvation said: ↑Please define:"intimately involved"Click to expand...
Intimately -1. Marked by close acquaintance, association, or familiarity.
2. Relating to or indicative of one's deepest nature: intimate prayers.
3. Essential; innermost: the intimate structure of matter.
4. Marked by informality and privacy: an intimate nightclub.
5. Very personal; private: an intimate letter.
6. Of or involved in a sexual relationship.
n.
A close friend or confidant.
Involved - Connected by participation or association
The Lord Jesus spoke of the hair on the head being numbered, that the flowers are arrayed in less beauty than His care for humankind, and that a sparrow doesn't fall without His knowledge. Certainly, if the Lord knows the thoughts before they are even formed in the head, knows our members before we are formed in the womb, and knows our going out and coming in, then certainly he is in all points "intimately involved" especially with those who are called His own children.
HeirofSalvation said: ↑These are bald assertions: please support these contentions. This is the onus of the OP.Click to expand...
The Scriptures teach that all the ways of the wicked are known:
"And mine eye shall not spare thee, neither will I have pity: but I will recompense thy ways upon thee, and thine abominations shall be in the midst of thee: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Thus saith the Lord GOD; An evil, an only evil, behold, is come. An end is come, the end is come: it watcheth for thee; behold, it is come."
If the Lord knows the ways of the wicked then He certainly knows those of the believer.
Therefore because God is a God of the rational - all things have purpose and reason.
HeirofSalvation said: ↑Yes, the heathen farmer has good reason to believe that if he works hard and sows...then he might indeed reap a good harvest, hence, he does so, please explain how this answers the question in the OP....Whether or not others come and destroy it is not germaine to the question...not at all, sometimes they do....sometimes they don't.Click to expand...
Those are rhetorical questions that are not answered in the negative.
HeirofSalvation said: ↑Allow me to throw out something...Did God shove your little sparrow out of the tree? The Scriptures do tell us that God knows it and is aware of it...but yet again......are you therefore implying that God has an individual purpose for every little act that occurs? Please support this.Click to expand...
What might seem a "little act" by some, doesn't mean that it is little to God.
A worm is little, but it ate the shade Jonah enjoyed.
An amoeba is microscopic, but can destroy a brain.
What may be of greater concern is that the believer is in every aspect of living to acknowledge God, yet some would actually consider that God is not purposed in every aspect.
HeirofSalvation said: ↑You pose this as a question as though we must assume what the answer is....so...since you asked this as a question...Do tell? What is the answer...The OP was a question....you seem to know said answer....tell us.Click to expand...
The statement in the OP was that "Everything happens for a reason." And it does. -
quantumfaith said: ↑:applause::applause::applause:
Although I am not entirely sure of your point. Do I give you impressions otherwise from what you have stated?Click to expand... -
quantumfaith said: ↑:applause::applause::applause:
Although I am not entirely sure of your point. Do I give you impressions otherwise from what you have stated?Click to expand...
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