Is your church or pastor on the list?

That's right, just ignore the challenge and everything I have said and repeat the same old rhetoric.:sleep: When it comes to the truth, yes, I am stubborn and being right has it's own personal rewards;:jesus: but there are many who read and will read these threads and have been encouraged and will be encouraged. I've gotten many private messages to that fact. They see who is back-peddling and they know who is standing with the WORD and not the teachings of men. It is they whom I wish to edify, and they are being edified. So I guess I have you to thank for some of it.

I am sorry your cat is about whipped, I still have much more to say and I am not satisfied with just having you ignore the heart of the issue; that is your unbiblical definition of THE VERY SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD--"Repentance"

:love2:

Carrierwave~

 

NO The OP is about Sanderson's little blacklist of Godly men....

Belief in the atoning death of Christ, and his resurrection leads to Repentance of Sin. One will not exist without the other...

They are 2 sides of the same coin.

Repent and Believe.... Believe and Repent....
Anything else is "easy believeism" which is what Sanderson's website is about....

 

People like you there is no peace. I have my backers also and they in no way believe as you. The greater part of Christians believe you must repent and turn from you sins, to be saved. As some have posted on here, they never even knew it was a question that you didn't have to turn from your sins.
I too, am surprised at your unbibical stance of repentance as is many others. I suspect people laugh at you when you say that people do not have to repent and turn from sin. All the churches I know, would show you the door.

If you have something of substance to say, I will respond, but if its the same O, same O, I am wasting my time.

I am glad that I follow the doctrine of ages, instead of some new found veiw by some young person trying to show everyone he has learned something new.

I have refuted everything you posted and have shown you that those before us, agreed with me. Such as:

John Calvin;.
IN WHAT SENSE IS REPENTANCE THE PRIOR CONDITION OF FORGIVENESS? a Now the hatred of sin, which is the beginning of repentance, first gives us access to the knowledge of Christ, who reveals himself to none but poor and afflicted sinners, who groan, toil, are heavy-laden, hunger, thirst, and pine away with sorrow and misery b(a) [ Isaiah 61:1-3; Matthew 11:5, 28; Luke 4:18]. Accordingly, we must strive toward repentance itself, devote ourselves to it throughout life, and pursue it to the very end if we would abide in Christ. b For he came to call sinners, but it was to repentance [cf. Matthew 9:13]. He was sent to bless the unworthy, but in order that every one may turn from his wickedness [ Acts 3:26; cf. Acts 5:31]. Scripture is full of such testimonies. For this reason, when God offers forgiveness of sins, he usually requires repentance of us in turn, implying that his mercy ought to be a cause for men to repent. He says, "Do judgment and righteousness, for salvation has come near." [ Isaiah 56:1 p.] Again, "A redeemer will come to Zion, and to those in Jacob who repent of their sins." [ Isaiah 59:20.] Again, "Seek the Lord while he can be found, call upon him while he is near; let the wicked man forsake his way and the unrighteousness of his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him." [ Isaiah 55:6-7 p.] Likewise, "Turn again, and repent, that your sins may be blotted out." [ Acts 3:19.] Yet we must note that this condition is not so laid down as if our repentance were the basis of our deserving pardon, but rather, because the Lord has determined to have pity on men to the end that they may repent, he indicates in what direction men should proceed if they wish to obtain grace. Accordingly, so long as we dwell in the prison house of our body we must continually contend with the defects of our corrupt nature, indeed with our own natural soul. a Plato sometimes says that the life of a philosopher is a meditation upon death; but we may more truly say that the life of a Christian man is a continual effort and exercise in the mortification of the flesh, till it is utterly slain, and God's Spirit reigns in us. Therefore, I think he has profited greatly who has learned to be very much displeased with himself, not so as to stick fast in this mire and progress no farther, but rather to hasten to God and yearn for him in order that, having been engrafted into the life and death of Christ, he may give attention to continual repentance. b Truly, they who are held by a real loathing of sin cannot do otherwise. For no one ever hates sin unless he has previously been seized with a love of righteousness. a This thought, as it was the simplest of all, so has it seemed to me to agree best with the truth of Scripture.(
Spurgeon
This one is from Spurgeon's sermons, Volume II.
Turn Or Burn

I.In the first place, my hearers, let me endeavor to explain to you the nature of the turning here meant.....

Ah! My hearer, it is not thy promise of repentance that can save thee; it is not thy vow, it is not thy solemn declaration, it is not the tear that is dried more easily than the dew-drop by the sun; it is not the transient emotion of the heart, which constitues a real turning to God. There must be a true and actual abandonment of sin, and a turning unto righteousness in real act and deed in every day life. Do you say you are sorry, and repent, and yet go on from day to day, just as you always went? Will you now boy your heads, and say, "Lord, I Repent," and in a little while commit the same deeds again? If you do, your repentance is worse than nothing, and shall but make your destruction yet more sure; for he that voweth to his Maker, and doth not pay, hath committed another sin, in that he hath attempted to deceive the Almighty, and lie against God that made him. Repentance, to be true, to be evangelical, must be a repentance which really affects our outward conduct.

In the next place, repentance must be entire. How many will say, "Sir, I will renounce this sin and the other; but there are certain darling lusts which I must keep and hold." O sirs, in God's name let me tell you, it is not the giving up of one sin, nor fifty sins which is true repentance; it is the solemn renunciation of every sin. If thou dost harbor one of these accursed vipers in thy heart, they repentance is but a sham. If thou dost indulge in but one lust, and dost give up every other, that one lust, like one leak in a ship, will sink thy soul.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


It's a great sermon, and he goes on to labor some other points about repentance. He says it must be immediate, hearty(from the heart), and perpetual(constant). It's not a work salvation, since he knows that his hearers are incapable of belief just as they are incapable of forsaking sin. In fact, I would argue that Spurgeons purpose in presenting such a hard Gospel is two-fold.
1) That false assurance of salvation would not be given to those who are not born again.
2) That the sinner will see the imposibility of the Gospel, and call out to God.

This is a great sermon, and probably one of the best presentations of the Gospel I have ever seen. He belabors the point of hell in the second portion of his sermon, and in the third, he tells the unbelievers that "Most seriously, I say, I do not believe any man can repent with evangelical repentance, of himself. You ask me then to what purpose is the sermon I have endeavored to preach, proving the necessity of repentance? Allow me to make the sermon of some purpose, under God, by its conclusion. Sinner! Thou art so desperately set on sin, that I have no hope thou wilt ever turn from it thyself. But, Listen! He who died on Calvary is exalted on high, 'To give repentance and remission of sin.' Dost thou this mornng feel that thou are a sinner? If so, ask of Christ to give thee repentance, for he can work repentance in thine heart by his Spirit, though thou canst not work it there thyself. Is thy heart like Iron? He can put it into the furnance of his love and make it melt. Is thy soul like the nether millstone? His grace is able to disolve it, like the ice is melted before the sun. He can make thee repent, thou thou canst not make thyself repent. If thou feelst thy need of repentance, I will not now say to thee 'repent', for I believer there are certain acts that must precede repentance. I should advice you to go to your houses and if you feel that you have sinned, and yet can not sufficiently repent of your transgression, bow your knees......

I will have to paste some on another page
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

continued;

George Whitefield : Repentance.

(Since that was such a long post up there, I will select small excepts to show that Whitefield also taught repentance to mean a forsaking of sin.)

" You, therefore, who have been sweaeres and cursers; you, who have been harlots and drunkards; you, who have been thieves and robbers; you, who have hitherto followed the sinful pleasures and diversions of life, let me beseech you, by the mercies of God in Christ Jesus, that you would no longer continue therein, but that you would forsake your evil ways, and turn unto the Lord. For he waits to be grascious to you, he is ready, he is willing to pardon you of all your sins: But do not expect Christ to pardon you of sin when you rin to it, and will not abstain from coplying with the temptations. But if you will be persuaded to absstain from evil and choose the good, to return to the Lord and repent of your wickedness, he has promised he will abundantly pardon you, he will heal your backslidings, and will love you freely. Resolve now this day to have done with your sins FOREVER; let your old ways and you be separated; you must resolve against it, for there can be no true repentance without a resolution to forsake it.... But then take that you do not ground your resolutions on your own strength, but in the strenght of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the way, he is the truth, he is the life; without his assistance, you can do nothing, but through his grace strengthening thee, thou wilt be enabled to do all things.

John Wesley's therapeutic understanding of salvation
Encounter, Summer 2002 by Ayers, Jeremy
<< Page 1 Continued from page 11. Previous | Next
.In "On Working Out Our Own Salvation," Wesley expands the meaning of repentance to include a host of attitudes and activities (e.g., restitution, seeking forgiveness, and almsgiving).68 This illustrates, I think, that repentance serves as the threshold, or turning point, from sinfulness to godliness. Accordingly, it involves much more than a single act - it involves a transformative process of time. Of course, any "piercing sense of our guilt" originates from God and is indicative of the priority of grace. And certainly, the conviction of our state will grow as we respond. But toward what does this conviction lead?
In terms of the ordo salutis, the answer is justification. "`But must not we put off the filthy rags of our own righteousness before we can put on the spotless righteousness of Christ?' Certainly we must; that is, in plain terms, we must 'repent' before we can `believe the gospel."69 Undoubtedly, problems arise in describing justifying faith as a free gift while at the same time making repen-tance a prerequisite to that faith. Wesley solves this issue by declaring faith the only immediate necessity to justification, with repentance serving as a remote necessity. "Therefore both repentance and fruits meet for repentance are in some sense necessary to justification."70 As Outler's annotation to this line explains, "Else-where, Wesley stresses repentance as the normal prepatory state for the reception of justifying faith and, in that sense, `necessary."'71 We can avoid some of the potential theological impasses associated with this concept of repentance preceding faith by remembering that repentance is essentially knowledge, a gracious epistemological reve-lation of one's condition which orients one toward acceptance (belief and trust) of God's justifying provision in Christ. And in this light, repentance logically belongs before faith because one must first be convicted of sin before receiving the remedy for it.


Westminster Confession of Faith
What is repentance? Let me read to you from the Westminster Confession of Faith, a document that comes to us from the seventeenth century: "By [repentance] a sinner, out of the sight and sense not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, as contrary to the holy nature and righteous law of God; and upon the apprehension of his mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, so grieves for, and hates his sins, as to turn from them all unto God, purposing and endeavoring to walk with him in all the ways of his commandments. . . yet [repentance] is of such necessity to all sinners, that none may expect pardon without it. As there is no sin so small that it deserves damnation; so there is no sin so great that it can bring damnation upon those who truly repent. Men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but it is every man's duty to endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly" (Westminster Confession of Faith, chapter XV, sections II, III, IV).


Just think about it, you have no one in the past, who agree with you. All of the most prominent theologians agree with me, that you must turn from sin, to be saved. Even John Calvin and Spurgeon who are Calvinist, still say you must turn from sin to be saved. You are whistling in the wind.
I pray everyone will read this thread to its fulness and see that John Calvin, Spurgeon, George Whitefield, John Wesley and the Westminster Confession of Faith, all believe what I do and that is you MUST turn from sin to be saved, and not judge this on a personality contest, but the truth according to scripture.

I pray also, they know your stance on this and that is that a person cannot repent and turn from sin towards God.

BBob,

 

Yes, it is about "repentance". His site is the "repentance" blacklist. It is completely about the biblical definition of repentance. :BangHead:

So you must believe in "hard-believism". What does God say:

(2Co 11:3) "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

This is exactly what has happened; "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

First, do what David Cloud has done--change the definition of God's Word "repent", which is "to think afterwards", "a reversal of a decision" "to CHANGE THE THINKING OR MIND, and make it "turn from your sins". This is blatant heresy to change the meaning of one of God's Holy, separted, everlasting, settled in Heaven, Words. This then leads to a total alteration of the Gospel message. And I have to agree with Sanderson--it adds WORKS to salvation's plan. It is a complete contradiction in terms (Romans 11:6) GRACE and WORKS
do not mix. Try it, and you get another gospel.

Open your eyes TIM. Read my posts and others by Ed and npetreley about the scriptures they use to defend the "turn from you sins" definition.

(2 Peter 3:9) completely refutes "turn from your sins" definition of "repentance".

God repented, did he "turn from His sins"? Put that definition into these verses:

Amo 7:6 The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the
Lord GOD.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

TIM, it is the wrong definition. What about your's?



Carrierwave~

 

I don't really see a difference...
OK, let's say repentance is just "changing ones mind"

When it concerns sin.. what does that mean... simply, changing ones mind about sin... when a person truly believes, they are changed... they repent... they change their mind about sin...

Before, they loved to sin...
Afterward, they see sin the way God does... sickening.

Once one sees sin this way, and sees the results it had on Christ... they turn from it...

Repentance and Belief are inseparatable...

A person that can see their sins on Christ and not have a new outlook on sin (repentance) then they are not looking at the cross with their heart.. only with their intellect.

Look at the way Peter used the word repent...
G3340
μετανοέω
metanoeō
met-an-o-eh'-o
From G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards, that is, reconsider (morally to feel compunction): - repent.

Now look at the way Amos used it to describe an anthropomorphism of God...
H5162
נחם
nâcham
naw-kham'
A primitive root; properly to sigh, that is, breathe strongly; by implication to be sorry, that is, (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to avenge (oneself): - comfort (self), ease [one’s self], repent (-er, -ing, self).

Repentance means to change ones mind about sin so much they are sorry...
2 Corinthians 7:10
(10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

BTW, the word repentance here is not the same as Peter used.... it is...
G3341
μετάνοια
metanoia
met-an'-oy-ah
From G3340; (subjectively) compunction (for guilt, including reformation); by implication reversal (of [another’s] decision): - repentance.

It is close, but not the same word.. In Corinthians it does imply a turning from sin... When you reverse your decision about sin you have turned...

Repentance does not produce Belief.... Therefore it is not works salvation..
Belief produces repentance... but in reality, it is almost simultaneously...
That is the real problem.... it happens so fast that we are really nitpicking over something that happens withing a second.

sorta like, which is first Regeneration or being sealed bythe spirit... which one saves you? they both happen all at the same time...
It all depends upon the facet of salvation you want to view.

Think of Salvation as a multifaceted diamond...


Each side is a different facet ... in Salvation, you have facets of belief, repentance, sealed with the spirit, adoption, regeneration, justification, sanctification, etc...
One way you look at it, you will emphasis adoption.. one way you will emphasize regeneration...

But it all is tied into Salvation.

 

OK, I only read the first half dozen pages or so of this thread, and then it was getting hard to keep reading. I kind of felt like Charlie Brown in the classroom when the teachers voice is just saying waa wa wa wa waa. But anyway to be serious, I agree that one has to have a repentant heart in order to be saved. But I have a question. Can anyone really truly believe Jesus is Lord, that He died for our sins, and not feel repentant? Is that even possible?

 

You hit the nail right on the head, Bob!

"All of the most prominent theologians agree with me,...


"The greater part of Christians believe you must repent and turn from you sins, to be saved."

There are many warnings in the Word of God about following the majority, Bob. GOD AND HIS WORD IS THE MAJORITY!

(Luke 16:15) "And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God."

(Exo 23:2) Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:

This principle you are teaching, Bob, is not consistant with the Word Of God.

"..teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

I must side with God on this, Bob.

(Col 2:8) "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."


Carrierwave~

 

Repent means to change your thinking and trust Jesus Christ as the only way to heaven. When you say a "repentant heart" do you mean a sorry heart? The change of mind is about "trust". If your sorrow at being lost leads you to TRUST Jesus Christ as Savior as your only hope for Heaven--then yes, you have repented. Turning from sin is not in the equation because it implies keeping the law; You must reject any human effort on your own part (turning from sins) and fall on God's mercy (Titus 3:5). This is GRACE. Completely of God. "Not of works lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8,9) Mercy and turning from sins are also not compatable with one another. "Turning from sins" is a focus on youreslf; "Mercy" focuses on Jesus Christ! "I will have mercy and not sacrifice..(Mat 12:7). "Repentance" says turning from sins must be rejected because it is promoting self-righteousness; "Repentance"says: Trust only Christ's righteousness.



Carrierwave~

 

How about a compromise? You do have to repent of your sins to be saved.

Step 1: Turn away from sinning
Step 2: Discover that you can't do it
Step 3: Flea to Jesus for refuge and mercy

:laugh:

 

I agree it is changing your mind. When you repent you are changing your mind about your sins. It is not a work to have regret or remorse about your sins, to see them as evil as God sees them. It is a heart issue, you regret your sin, and change your heart towards God.

 

Your point is good, Tim.

Turning from sin comes as a result of being "in Christ". Before you are saved all you can do is admit to it and confess it. Any attempt to try to rectify sin in your life outside of letting Christ deal with it will result in failure and is a rejection of God's method to remove your sin, that is the propitiation of Jesus' sacrifice. You must allow Jesus to pay for it and forgive it and leave it at that. After salvation
the power of the Holy Spirit gives you Grace to not let sin have dominion over you. This can only happen after regeneration. I will talk more later

Sorry you have been ignored Tim, you are a very thinking person!

Carrierwave~

 

So, do you believe you can repent in the act of adultery???

BBob,

BBob,

 

I don't think you know even what you are saying. Here you agree with Npet; when he says turning away from sin and see you can't do it. If you are committing adultery and tell me you can't quit, I will say you are not truthful. But if you quit the adultery, you still are not saved, it takes the blood of Jesus to forgive you.

If you say, you can't help killing someone, I will tell you that you are not a Christian. If you say, you cannot stop worshiping a cow, I will tell you that you are not a Christian, nor truthful. etc,

Anyway, you are leaning towards me by leaps and bounds. Pretty soon, you will have it right.

Many years ago, I thought I had learned something new also, like you, but I kept my mouth shut in front of the older preachers for some years, then I learned the Old preachers were right all along, and it was I that was wrong. You should listen to your elders, like Wesley, Spurgeon, Calvin, Whitefield, Westminster Confession of faith, and give it time and you will see the truth. I really think what got you started off in this belief of yours, is what you heard and read about "sinners prayer" of which I don't like either. I want to see some condemnation in a person, before I receive him in the church. Anyway, do you believe a person has to become "condemned" before he believes and turns to Christ???

2. Do you realize that you are in sin before salvation?

3. Do you know you are lost because of those sins?

4. Do you feel condemned because of those sins?

5. Do you attempt to get away from Satan, or "get behind me Satan, I don't want to go your way anymore"?

6. Do you have a broken heart and a constrive Spirit?

7. Did you believe in Christ but continued happy go lucky in sin?

8. Do you see that you are almost alone in your belief of not turning from sin?

BBob,

 

Luke 14



25And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
33So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do these verses pertain to this debate?

 

Good verse, christianyouth.

We must be willing to forsake all... even our sin. If there is no willingness to forsake our sin, God isn't going to hear our prayer for Salvation.

Many want both the joys of heaven and the sinful pleasures of this earth. Many want Christ and Belial. That boat don't float.

Repentance... a true sorrow for sin... must be felt by one who wants to come to Christ.

 

Jesus had this to say about those who think they can "sweep their lives clean of sin" on their own.

On the one hand, you can't stop sinning on your own. On the other hand, you will never come to Jesus if you're satisfied in your sin. You do have to hate your sin. But you also have to learn of the futility of self-reform, otherwise you'll never need Jesus.

 

isn't hating your sin a sign of repentance?

A man who loves that which is sinful will not see his sin as being evil.

If a man does not hate his sin, he will never come under conviction. How can that one be saved who does not know he is lost?

 

As to your question, it depends on how you define repentance. If, by repentance, you mean "turn away", then, no, hating sin is not a sign of repentance. It is a sign of enlightenment and sorrow; the horrifying knowledge that we are not right with God.

But that can lead to two reactions: 1) We can try to "fix" ourselves and stop sinning. As I have shown, that will do no good. Self-reform is futile, and we can never do anything to put ourselves right with God. 2) We can flee to Jesus for refuge. That DOES put us right with God.

As to the rest of what you said, I agree, and you're just repeating what I said, anyway.