It is impossible to convince a Mormon that he is wrong!

Yes, except if they are an elect and its God's Time to reveal them the Truth. Nothing can hinder that, if they are an Elect, not even being a mormon !

 

The problem Brother Biblicist is this:

You accuse all historians and all Bible translators of being part of a paedobaptist conspiracy to hide the true Gospel.

You accuse the Greeks of not understanding their own language. You seem to understand Greek better than they do. You know when "eis" means "for" and when it means "because of", but they don't. The entire Greek nation is inferior to your understanding of Greek.

According to you there is no need to see how the early Church Fathers interpreted these verses because they were Catholics and part of the global conspiracy.

You insinuate that God has not been able to preserve his Word except for a short period with Tyndale and now with the Landmark KJV. the "when" of God granting forgiveness of sins is the heart of the Gospel. You are telling us that the heart of the Gospel has been hidden for the overwhelming majority of the last two thousand years in direct opposition to the words of God Almighty that he WOULD preserve his Word???

You and your Baptist colleagues have invented a new doctrine, which can only be verified by verses you have selected as your base position, and then you use these verses to re-interpret the simple, plain meaning of the remainder of the Holy Bible.

Your arguments are circular, complicated and not accepted by over 90% of the world's Christians. Baptists are my brothers and sisters in Christ, but your methods of proving you are right are no different than those used by the Mormons and JW's.

I wanted to have a discussion with you because I wanted you to prove me wrong or prove me right. However, your slash and burn, "I'm going to destroy you" attitude is a complete turn off, and I am not interested in discussing this further with you. You seem incapable of having a calm, civil discussion.

Your views are well thought out, even plausible but WRONG. There are two facts that prove to me that your interpretation is false: First, the Greeks themselves do not hold to your interpretation of their Greek language, secondly, no Christian in the first 800 or so years of Christianity held your interpretation.

 

Thank you for just confirming exactly what I suspected and charged. You are not here to be objective at all but clearly you are here to proselyte. Please do take your vain reasonings elsewhere because we have enough false teaching on this forum already without one more doing it by sleight of hand.

 

No, I grew up with people like you in the fundamentalist Baptist churches: angry, intorlerant, verbally abusive, and with the attitude "if you don't agree with me its because you aren't a true believer."

Thank God the overwhelming majority of Baptists are good, loving, kind Christian people. Not like you. Shame on you.

I am seeking the truth, not trying to convert.

If I really am "lost" as you seem to insinuate, you just drove me away from your "truth" by your un-Christ like attitude and behavior.

 

Your arguments are speculative, philsophical, historical in direct opposition to clear and undenialbe Biblical evidence. You simply repeat your speculations, philsophical and historical arguments and refuse to deal with the Biblical evidence against your interpretations.

So, why waste my time and your time? It is a merry go round discussion that gets nowhere.

Again, you attack the person because you cannot possibly attack the evidence I presented as it is irrefutable. Neither do you even attempt to address it! So why waste my time and your time???

 

At the very beginning of this discussion I conceded that the scriptures teach clearly that baptism remits sins, regenerates and saves. However, that is not the issue. The issue is HOW does baptism remit sins, regenerates and saves? Literally or figatively.

So, if I conceded that all the paedobaptist translations and paedbaptism grammarians are correct what would that prove? Nothing at all! Still the issue would be does baptism literally or figuratively accomplish these things.

That issue is clearly settled by scripture that by design are intended to answer that very issue - Hebrews 10:1-4; Romans 4:6-11; 1 Pet. 3:21.

 

I certaninly hope that when you are sharing the Good News of our Savior with a truly "lost" person that you show a little more patience. Most people are not going to drop their long held beliefs immediately just because YOU believe that YOUR viewpoint is irrrefutable and therefore DEMAND their complete and total surrender to your position after discussing just one passage of Scripture with them!

I'm saved, my faith is in Christ for my salvation, nothing else, including my decision to be baptized. Offending me really has no consequences in the big scheme of things.

Someone else that you may be dealing with here on the BB or out in life, however, may not be saved, and your attitude could turn him away from Christ. The consequences could be eternally damning!

Sadly, if you really are Calvinist you probably don't even believe your actions matter in that situation. The person you have offended is either one of the Elect or he isn't. It makes being self-righteous and rude to people consequence-free. "The guy's destiny is predetermined, poor sap, my actions will not affect the outcome." What a sad, sad theology!

 

Here is the bottom line difference between us. You presented your evidences and I dealt with them line by line. You may not agree with my assessment but I did not dodge anything.

In contrast, I presented some powerful evidences against your position that you REPEATEDLY ignored and still ignore to this present time.

There can be no discussion on a ONE WAY street.

Finally, you offended yourself! I never called you names. I never made any attacks on your person. I simply stated the truth and that is you are not approaching this discussion objectively, you are not honestly dealing with the evidences presented against your position. You are simply repeating speculative, historical, theological bias over and over again.

On another post, I presented the same evidence to a person objectively seeking the truth and a totally different response to the evidences. He actually thoughtfully considered the merits of those arguments and could see they completely destroyed the paedobaptistic interpretations.

Paul intentionally by design addresses the very heart of this issue in Romans 4:5-11 and yet when you approached this text you totally ignored and dismissed that Paul was presenting the Abrahamic model "for all who are of faith" based upon a PRE-circumcison Abraham. Instead, you ignored that explicit and repeated fact and went on to attempt to justify your paedobaptism on a POST-circumcision Abraham - totally contradictory to Paul's primary repeated emphasis to the contrary.

Hence, it is easy to see you have absolutely NO OBJECTIVITY whatsoever.

 

Romans 4:7-11 is the absolute death to paedobaptism and all other forms of sacramentalism for several reasons.

1. It is by design the doctrinal explanation of what does and does not constitutes justification by faith.

2. It is by design the presentation of a precross man as the example of justification by faith to "ALL WHO ARE OF FAITH" regardless if they are pre-cross (like Abraham) or post cross.

3. It is by repeated design the example of a PRE-circumcision Abraham example rather than a POST-circumcision example.

4. It is by design to be a doctrinal explanation of the relationship between pre-circumcision justification by faith and external divine rites clearly stated to be an external "sign" and "seal" of something already in possesson LONG BEFORE submission to such rites.

This passage is not taken from a recorded sermon or summary statement by someone as is Acts 2:38; 22:16; or something that must be inferred as John 3:3-5; Titus 3:5; etc. This is by intent designed to be the doctrinal explanation of justification by faith and its proper relationship with external rites not for merely some but for "ALL WHO ARE OF FAITH."

 

I am going to study the topics you have just discussed. I intend to do so with an open mind and more importantly an open heart for God to speak to me through his Word. As I said earlier, it is my personal belief that of all Christian denominations, there are two whose interpretation seem the most plausible to me, Lutherans and Baptists.

I'm going to study it alone, however. I have come to the conclusion that instead of spending one to two hours a day debating/arguing on this website, my time would be better spent reading the Bible and sharing the Gospel with others.

I have listened intently to your position. I plan to study it more. Again, however, I encourage you to have a little more patience with those who do not agree with you. God bless you, brother Biblicist.

 

If you will remember, you asked me if I would study a book of the New Testament with you. I suggested the book of Romans but you never responded. Instead you started into Matthew.

Studying a passage is always better than "debating" a passage as the very nature of debate includes strife.

Romans 4 is designed by Paul to expand on why faith as a principle ("law") excludes all boasting (Rom. 3:27). Hence, he introduces selected aspects of Abraham's life (Gen. 15; Gen. 17, Gen. 22) and one aspect from David's life (Psa. 32) to illustrate that justification by the principle of faith excludes everything that would provide any grounds of boasting before God. It excludes his own personal works (vv. 1-3). It excludes any personal obedience to divine rites (vv. 9-11). It excludes any personal obedience to the Law of God (vv. 12-15). It excludes any and all co-partcipant actions by Abraham (vv. 16-21). Intermittantly, Paul tells his readers that Abraham's example is applicable to "all who are of faith" (vv. 11-12, 16) and directly applies it to his readers own justification by faith in the gospel (4:22-5:2).

 

2 major points here!
Dr wallace does NOT agree with your assessment of the greek eis as regarding to "proving" water baptism required for remission of sins...

MUST take into account entire NT theology, and there is NO way to prove the Apsotles held to water baptism as means to remit sins!

 

I hadn't heard back from you when I posted that I was starting in Matthew. I intend to go through the the New Testament from Matthew through the epistles. I will post ideas/passages that I come across and I will be interested in hearing your take on them. I AM listening to you brother. If at the end of my study you have persuaded me to your position I will tell you. Again, I seek the Truth, not just to be right. However I'm not going to debate you. I will present topics, you can respond, and then I will study your responses. Please do not ask me to "admit defeat" until we reach the end.

 

Here is the Greek Orthodox position on Baptism and their English interpretation of some of the verses in question:

http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/ocrc/2009/06/infant-baptism-as-scriptural-tradition/

 

Here is the Greek Orthodox position on salvation:


Orthodox Creed

Orthodox Catechism

GOD THE FATHER:

GOD THE FATHER is the fountainhead of the Holy Trinity. The Scriptures reveal the one God is Three Persons -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- eternally sharing the one divine nature. From the Father the Son is begotten before all ages and all time (Psalm 2:7; II Corinthians 11:31). It is from the Father that the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds (John 15:26). God the Father created all things through the Son, in the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1 and 2; John 1:3; Job 33:4), and we are called to worship Him (John 4:23). The Father loves us and sent His Son to give us everlasting life (John 3:16).

JESUS CHRIST

JESUS CHRIST is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, eternally born of the Father. He became man, and thus He is at once fully God and fully man. His coming to earth was foretold in the Old Testament by the prophets. Because Jesus Christ is at the heart of Christianity, the Orthodox Church has given more attention to knowing Him than to anything or anyone else.

In reciting the Nicene Creed, Orthodox Christians regularly affirm the historic faith concerning Jesus as they say, "I believe... in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father; by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end."

THE HOLY SPIRIT

THE HOLY SPIRIT is one of the Persons of the Holy Trinity and is one in essence with the Father. Orthodox Christians repeatedly confess, "And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified..." He is called the "promise of the Father" (Acts 1:4), given by Christ as a gift to the Church, to empower the Church for service to God (Acts 1:8), to place God's love in our hearts (Romans 5:5), and to impart spiritual gifts (I Corinthians 12:7-13) and virtues (Galatians 5:22, 23) for Christian life and witness. Orthodox Christians believe the biblical promise that the Holy Spirit is given through chrismation (anointing) at baptism (Acts 2:38). We are to grow in our experience of the Holy Spirit for the rest of our lives.

INCARNATION

INCARNATION refers to Jesus Christ coming "in the flesh". The eternal Son of God the Father assumed to Himself a complete human nature from the Virgin Mary. He was (and is) one divine Person, fully possessing from God the Father the entirety of the divine nature, and in His coming in the flesh fully possessing a human nature from the Virgin Mary. By His Incarnation, the Son forever possesses two natures in His one Person. The Son of God, limitless in His divine nature, voluntarily and willingly accepted limitation in His humanity in which He experienced hunger, thirst, fatigue -- and ultimately, death. The Incarnation is indispensable to Christianity -- there is no Christianity without it. The Scriptures record, "...every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God" (I John 4:3). By His Incarnation, the Son of God redeemed human nature, a redemption made accessible to all who are joined to Him in His glorified humanity.

SIN

SIN literally means to "miss the mark." As St. Paul writes, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). We sin when we pervert what God has given us as good, falling short of His purposes for us. Our sins separate us from God (Isaiah 59:1, 2), leaving us spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1). To save us, the Son of God assumed our humanity, and being without sin "He condemned sin in the flesh" (Romans 8:3). In His mercy, God forgives our sins when we confess them and turn from them, giving us strength to overcome sin in our lives. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (I John 1:9).

SALVATION

SALVATION is the divine gift through which men and women are delivered from sin and death, united to Christ, and brought into His eternal kingdom. Those who heard St. Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost asked what they must do to be saved. He answered, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). Salvation begins with these three steps: 1) repent, 2) be baptized, and 3) receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. To repent means to change our mind about how we have been, to turn from our sin and to commit ourselves to Christ. To be baptized means to be born again by being joined into union with Christ. And to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit means to receive the Spirit Who empowers us to enter a new life in Christ, to be nurtured in the Church, and to be conformed to God's image.

Salvation demands faith in Jesus Christ. People cannot save themselves by their own good works. Salvation is "faith working through love". It is an ongoing, life-long process. Salvation is past tense in that, through the death and Resurrection of Christ, we have been saved. It is present tense, for we are "being saved" by our active participation through faith in our union with Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is also future, for we must yet be saved at His glorious Second Coming.

BAPTISM

BAPTISM is the way in which a person is actually united to Christ. The experience of salvation is initiated in the waters of baptism. The Apostle Paul teaches in Romans 6: 1-6 that in baptism we experience Christ's death and resurrection. In it our sins are truly forgiven and we are energized by our union with Christ to live a holy life. The Orthodox Church practices baptism by full immersion.

Currently, some consider baptism to be only an "outward sign" of belief in Christ. This innovation has no historical or biblical precedent. Others reduce it to a mere perfunctory obedience to Christ's command (cf. Matthew 28:19, 20). Still others, ignoring the Bible completely, reject baptism as a vital factor in salvation. Orthodoxy maintains that these contemporary innovations rob sincere people of the most important assurances that baptism provides -- namely that they have been united to Christ and are part of His Church.

NEW BIRTH

NEW BIRTH is receipt of new life. It is how we gain entrance into God's kingdom and His Church. Jesus said, "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5). From its beginning, the Church has taught that the "water" is the baptismal water and the "Spirit" is the Holy Spirit. The new birth occurs in baptism where we die with Christ, are buried with Him, and are raised with Him in the newness of His resurrection, being joined into union with Him in His glorified humanity (Acts 2:38; Romans 6:3, 4). The idea that being "born again" is a religious experience disassociated from baptism is a recent one and has no biblical basis whatsoever.

JUSTIFICATION

JUSTIFICATION is a word used in the Scriptures to mean that in Christ we are forgiven and actually made righteous in our living. Justification is not a once-for-all, instantaneous pronouncement guaranteeing eternal salvation, regardless of how wickedly a person might live from that point on. Neither is it merely a legal declaration that an unrighteous person is righteous. Rather, justification is a living, dynamic, day-to-day reality for the one who follows Christ. The Christian actively pursues a righteous life in the grace and power of God granted to all who continue to believe in Him.

SANCTIFICATION

SANCTIFICATION is being set apart for God. It involves us in the process of being cleansed and made holy by Christ in the Holy Spirit. We are called to be saints and to grow into the likeness of God. Having been given the gift of the Holy Spirit, we actively participate in sanctification. We cooperate with God, we work together with Him, that we may know Him, becoming by grace what He is by nature.

 

I will not waste my time reading uninspired opinions of men as there is no end of that. If I attempted to respond the mass of writings you place on this forum I would have to write a theology book! Not interested in what men say. Give me the Word of God or give me nothing at all. If you want to present scriptures for my response fine! But I will not respond to human speculations, philosophical opinions and traditions of men. My title "Biblicist" was not chosen by accident.

 

What the Orthodox are right about are: sin, the work of Christ (justification and Christus Victor atonement).

 

Dear Biblicist: I am only presenting the writings of the Greeks to see if the Greeks agree with your interpretation of the Greek word "eis". I am sure that you do not believe that your understanding of the Greek language is infallible. I am therefore trying to investigate how the Greeks themselves translate "eis". The Greek Orthodox translate the "for" in Acts 2:38 as the forward looking "for the purpose of" not the backward looking "because of". Here is another statement of this belief by the Greeks. Is there any evidence that they once believed otherwise?

I shortly will post the next passage of Scripture related to Salvation/Baptism.

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7067

 

The Greek Orthodox are wrong on so many other issues in spite of knowing the Greek!

Again, even if I concede their interpretation of eis is correct and mine is wrong it settles nothing! I have already admitted that baptism does in fact remit sins, saves, regenerates but that is not the issue. The issue is HOW does it do that and the argument over eis does not answer that question.

 

The reason I have posted articles from the Greek Orthodox Church is for the following reasons:

You have told me that I cannot trust my English Bibles. According to you, my ESV and my King James Bibles contain error.

You have said that the only way to know the true interpretation of the New Testament, God’s infallible Word, is to go to the original Greek.

You have said that you have studied Greek and that you and other Baptist scholars can be trusted when you state that the Greek word “eis” used in Matthew 3:11 and Acts 22:38 should be translated as “because of”, giving the interpretation that both John’s baptism and Christ’s baptism are to be performed because of the forgiveness of sins/ because of repentance.

The articles from the Greek Orthodox Church show that the Greek people do not interpret “eis” in these verses as “because of”. The Greeks translate “eis” in these verses in the forward looking sense of “for the purpose of”, “unto” or “toward” the forgiveness of sins/repentance.

Since I cannot trust my English language Bibles, and since I do not speak or understand Greek, I am forced to choose between you and your Baptist scholar colleagues or the Greek Orthodox Church and the Greek people for the proper interpretation of the Greek word “eis”.

Since both you/your Baptist Bible scholar colleagues and the Greek Orthodox Church/Greek people are fallible persons/entities, I must make a choice who I should place my trust in to understand the Greek language better: non-Greek Baptists or Greek-speaking Greeks.

I’m sorry, but I have to go with the Greeks!

The idea that you and your non-Greek Baptist scholars understand the Greek language better than the entire Greek speaking world makes no sense. It is not logical, brother!

Now I believe that your response to this statement is going to be one of the following:

1. You will admit that you didn’t realize that the entire Greek speaking world interprets the word “eis” in the verses in question as “for the purpose of “, you will admit your error, and be willing to continue looking at Scripture , and once finished reading the entire New Testament, then and only then come to a conclusion on the doctrine of Baptism.


2. You will state that the true early Greek Christians did believe that “eis” means “because of” in the verses above, but that they were completely wiped out along with any trace of their existence, or they joined the world-wide paedobaptist conspiracy and have destroyed all evidence that the original Greek Christian churches believed that baptism is “because of” repentance, the forgiveness of sins.

3. You will state that it is irrelevant if the Greeks have always interpreted the word “eis” in the above verses as “for the purpose of” repentance/forgiveness of sins, because in order for these verses to be compatible with Baptist/evangelical doctrine, they MUST be interpreted as “because of”.

To the last response I will say this: Read the following verse

Acts 16:31
King James Version (KJV)
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

When we get to the Book of Acts, I have no intention of trying to re-interpret that verse to fit my doctrine!

That verse states that the only requirement for being saved is to “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ”. That’s it!!

That verse does not say that you need to be a good person to be saved.
That verse does not say that you need to do good works, such as give 10% of your income in tithes, to be saved.
That verse does NOT say that you need to be baptized to be saved!!!

I will not try to re-interpret Acts 16:31 by bringing in verses like Mark 16:16 which says: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”.

God Almighty states in Acts 16:31 of his Holy Word that the only requirement for salvation is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and that’s it! Not good works, not baptism, not anything but faith in Christ.

We should all read the Bible as a whole and then form a conclusion on a doctrine. We should not start reading the Bible with a preconceived belief and re-interpret all the verses along the way that seem to disagree with our position!

No Christian should reinterpret the Bible to fit his or her doctrine!

I am finished with Matthew chapter 3 if you are. I will post the next passage of Scripture tomorrow.

Have a good night!