THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH (1646), which is the "Standard Creed" for the majority of Calvinists, has this on the "fall of man"
" Our first parents, begin seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own gloryW
(http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=westminster_conf_of_faith.html)
Can anyone show me from Scripture, where it says that God was in any way "pleased" with the sin of Adam and Eve?
I have before me the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary (1969 ed.), where I have looked up the meanings of "pleased"
"Affected by feelings of satisfaction or pleasure; contended, gratified" (Vol. II, p.1522)
This meaning is from the Middle Ages, which would be the time of the writing of this confession.
Clearly the language shows that the this Confession does not represent what the Bible has to say on this very important doctrine, - the fall of man.
We read in Genesis 6:6 that sin (including the fall", "grieved Him at His heart". Completely the opposite to what we read in this "Confession", which is suposed to be based on the Bible. Yet another distortion of the Truth as taught in Scripture.
I am bound to be accused by Calvinists of not really understanding Calvinism. This is their usual line now, espacially when they don't have an answer to something.
It "pleased" God that man sinned?
Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by icthus, May 10, 2005.
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Your example form Isaiah does not allow for the use of "pleased" in the Confessions. Although the KJV uses "pleased", and "pleasure". Both the Hebrew words, "chaphets" and "chephets", give the meaning to "will, willing". This would correspond to the "permit" in the Confession, but there is no justification for God being " pleased to permit" the fall. It is completely foreign to the character of a Holy and Just God -
"A primitive root; properly to incline to; by implication (literally but rarely) to bend; figuratively to be pleased with, desire: - X any at all, (have, take) delight, desire, favour, like, move, be (well) pleased, have pleasure, will, would."
Here's another one:
"BDB Definition:
1) to delight in, take pleasure in, desire, be pleased with
1a) (Qal)
1a1) of men
1a1a) to take pleasure in, delight in
1a1b) to delight, desire, be pleased to do
1a2) of God
1a2a) to delight in, have pleasure in
1a2b) to be pleased to do
2) to move, bend down
2a) (Qal) to bend down
Part of Speech: verb"
These definitions disagree with yours. The WCF and the KJV are from similar periods, and the uses are similar. -
And they would have understood that that didn't mean that God was doing the "happy dance" over man's sin, anymore than he was doing the "happy dance" over Christ's death, but that it was his will to permit sin--that he chose (or desired) to permit it for his own purposes--in the same way that it was his will (or his pleasure) for Christ to die.
This is, BTW, a legitimate way to use the word please: to seem right to one; to be one's will
[ May 10, 2005, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ] -
this is a rather humorous thread. how anyone could derive that God is 'pleased' by sin based on the quasi-Shakespearian wording of that confession is beyond me. It was by my pleasing that I left this post, but it sure didn't please me that much.
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And they would have understood that that didn't mean that God was doing the "happy dance" over man's sin, anymore than he was doing the "happy dance" over Christ's death, but that it was his will to permit sin--that he chose (or desired) to permit it for his own purposes--in the same way that it was his will (or his pleasure) for Christ to die.
This is, BTW, a legitimate way to use the word please: to seem right to one; to be one's will </font>[/QUOTE]I know exactly about the usage of the terms. But, this is my point. Even though God no doubt has "allowed" sin in the world, you cannot say as you do, that He "willed" it, or, as you also say, "He chose (or desired)" the fall of man. While I will grant that the word "pleased" in Middle English did have the meaning "will", as it probably does today, yet is was never used to denote "allowed". I gather from the tenor of the Westminster Confession, that they had in mind what you have suggested. This I believe to be sgainst the teaching of Scripture. Why would God "desire" the fall of man, and then when it happens, Scripture says that "it grieved Him"? Does this make any sense? If something that takes palce is in accordance tio your "good pleasure", then why should this offend you? The Calvinistic doctrine of the fall of man has not its basis in the Word of God. -
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(Is it any wonder that Calvinist use Arminian methods of Evangelism when they are stuck with an Arminian Bible and have to give Arminian answers to hard questions?).
God does not CAUSE Adam to "choose against his nature" God "PERMITS the choice"!!
What a perfect - Arminian solution to the problem.
God foreknows the choice and sees the choice that sinless Adam will make "against Adam's own sinless nature". God CAN "stop it" before it happens -- but CHOOSES to allow it.
How is it that ALLOWING free will for Adam (at such geat cost to God in the life of His Son and the suffering of humanity) - is "VALUED" so highly by God that He would PERMIT the choice (not CAUSE the choice) - is the ultimate argument for FREE WILL and the Arminian model!
In Christ,
Bob -
Merriam Webster has grieve: 4 obsolete a : PROVOKE, ANGER, ENRAGE... which is a bit previous because we still use the word in this way. Getting grief off a person usually means provocation.
If Adam had a choice then he would have been sovereign in that choice and that is not possible because God is Sovereign.
EPH 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will...
johnp. -
If Adam had a choice then he would have been sovereign in that choice and that is not possible because God is Sovereign.
EPH 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will...
johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]John, your understanding would make God the author of sin. If Adam had no choice in what he did, then he did what God wanted him to do. This is directly against what the Bible records on the fall. If you read in Genesis chapter 3, you will see that God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit, and said that if they did, they would surely die. the devil on the other hand, enticed them to disobey God, and contradicted what God had said, saying they would not die. If their actions were not based on their own free choice, then what they did in disobeying God, was in fact what God wanted them to do in the first place. This whole teaching of Calvinism of God being the "cause" of all things that come to pass, is NOT what Scripture teaches. And, regardless of your arguing against it, does make God the author of sin.
To say that God did not "permit" the fall, but actually "caused" it, is in my view blasphemy. -
God had a good reason for permitting sin, and so he willed to permit it, despite knowing that it would grieve him. Just like he desired (or willed) for Christ to die, knowing full well that it would grieve him when it happened.
So now that I've responded to what you posted to me, may I ask you some questions? Let me quote your response to me again, with two changes in brackets to reflect more accurately what I wrote, and also what is written in the WCF.
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Russell, you are using words here without understanding what they really mean.
Its one thing to say that God "allowed" the fall of man, and sin entering the world. But, to say that He "willed" or "desired" it, is another matter. This is where I have the problem.
Its all down to the "freedom of the will" in man that God placed within man when He created him. There are many questions that us humans simply do not have the answers for. One of them, is the origin of sin. I will not be content with language that says that God "willed" the fall, for Scripture simply is against any such teaching. He did not prevent the fall, but this cannot be taken to mean that He "desired" it, which the term "willed" teaches. How can God "will" something, then then see it as wrong? We have to be very careful in oue choice of words, especially when it is used for the Lord.
I don't think that you can take Ephesians 1:11 to include the fall of man. When God finished the Creation of the world, He said "it is good". But, since the fall of man, His Creation has become marred with sin, something He did not "desire" for man. Herein lies a great mystery, and I for one will not try to conprehend the workings of the Mind of God. -
And you did not answer my question: Did God permit the fall willingly or unwillingly?
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It is clear that you don't understand the WCF, nor the basic doctrines that are being discussed. -
Hello icthus.
If we have an order to the things of God then revealing His glory must have come first. Adam had no chance. The angels had no chance but God prevented some from falling. 1TI 5:21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels...
He elected some not to fall! :cool:
(Calvinism sees Adam sinning by his own free will, not by divine coercion. Sproul http://www.the-highway.com/fall_Sproul.html )
I'm probably considered hyper if my brothers are feeling generous.
Whatcha think of below?
Merriam Webster has grieve: 4 obsolete a : PROVOKE, ANGER, ENRAGE... which is a bit too soon because we still use the word in England this way. Getting grief off a person can mean provocation and a punch on the nose.
It is unanswered by you.
THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH (1646), which is the "Standard Creed" for the majority of Calvinists, has this on the "fall of man"
Creeds are not scripture. Scripture alone is the place of argument if you want to discuss anything with Calvinists. I belong to a Baptist Church and they hold to the WFC. They are not Protestants.
Creeds are just shorthand and are not meant to be complete but I disagree with the WCF here. I see it as a cop out.
What do you think?
This is better.
EPH 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will...
That's why we can trust Him. We know for a certainty that nothing happens to us unless the Lord causes it to happen in conformity to the purpose of His will. Job knew that. It didn't bother him to know that it was God at work not Satan.
john. -
Icthus,
I am still waiting for an answer to my question: -
i'll venture a guess that men have been debating on this very topic for close to 6,000.
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Well maybe they have Dan but it is time to reach a conclusion.
I have answered but just in case it was missed He was more than willing that Adam should fall.
john.