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Featured Jer. 31: Spiritual Israel's Hopeful Future: Christ

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by asterisktom, Apr 30, 2012.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Actually......you do not understand this and need to study much on it

    10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


    The law.....not Christ.....the law:thumbsup:
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Brother,

    Peter said it is now......


    There is an expansion of Israel...with gentiles coming in.....the church is christian Israel......the seperation of dispensationalism.....church heavenly/israel earthly is false....ot israel is toast mt 21:43...as the other poster laid out very well:thumbsup:
     
  3. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I greatly appreciate the desire of Dispensationalists to be Biblical, and I have appreciated the careful exegesis of Thomas 15, Revmwc and others.

    However, I cannot accept that there are two peoples of God (John 10:16). Of unbelieving Israel, the Lord spoke through Jeremiah: "Behold, the days are coming," says the LORD, "That I will punish all who are circumcised with the uncircumcised- Egypt, Judah, Edom, the people of Ammon, Moab and all who are in the farthest corners, who dwell in the wilderness. For all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel is uncircumcised in the heart" (Jer 9:25-26). This prophecy may have been partially fulfilled in the conquests of Nebuchadnezzar, but its completion will be at the Return of Christ in judgement. It certainly has nothing to do with the events of AD 70.

    Nevertheless, there is a remnant according to the election of grace (Rom 11:5), and these are they who are also circumcised in the heart. To these are added believing Gentiles to create 'One new man from the two' (Eph 2:15). Therefore, '...We are the circumcision. who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh' (Phil 3:3).

    This is not 'Replacement Theology,' it's Inclusion Theology, that the Gentiles should be included among the people of God, which is, of course, the fulfilment of God's covenant with Abraham (Gen 12:3; Gal 3:7-9).

    Steve
     
  4. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I agree with you however give your opinion concerning this.

    2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    Does reconciliation imply a covenant relationship which had been broken?

    Does not Jer. 9:25,26 associate the uncircumcised of the heart house of Israel, who had been given a bill of divorce by God with the uncircumcised heathen in contrast to the circumcision made with hands house of Judah still in the land at that time?

    Was it at this time that the circumcision made with hands, the house of Judah was calling the house of Israel, Uncircumcision, that is foreskins, castaways?

    Eph. 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye in time past Gentiles (heathen) in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

    Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

    Is not what Jesus is doing with the "church," exactly what God had said he would through the house of Judah and the house of Israel in the OT?

    See Ezek. 36:23---Also Jer 3:14 to understand the out of from Acts 15:14
    And Romans 11:25 in part blinded.

    YET

    Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


    Why did God choose the children of Israel? What were they going to be to the rest of mankind? Did God have to make any changes to His plan?
     
    #24 percho, May 2, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2012
  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Wow! There are some meaty questions in that lot. I shall be very happy to give my understanding on all the texts you quote, but you may have to wait for a few days. I'm off to France for a long weekend on Friday, so if I don't get it done tomorrow, it won't be done until next week.

    A bientot!

    Steve
     
  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    He's even worse over on the Fighting Fundamentals board.
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    :thumbsup:

    I think of it as 'the enlargement of Israel', to include all the children of the heavenly Zion, who are Israelites indeed:

    26 And he said, Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Shem......
    27 God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem...... Gen 9

    1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
    2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
    3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54 (see also Gal 4:26,27; Ps 87)

    Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hos 1:10
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  8. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Gen. 9 pre-Abrahamic covenant you now apply to this. God has always had all men in mind for salvation. The Jews were to reach the gentiles with the witness of God, Jonah is a great example of that, God told Jonah go to Ninevah and warn them of destruction. Once Jonah arrived the Ninevites turned to God and were saved (for lack of a different way of saying it). The Temple was built with a Gentile court where the Gentile converts were to come and worship God.
    God has always had an inclussive plan for salvation. The promises for physical Israel as seen in Jeremiah, Daniel, Isaiah and even Revelation are for the Physical seed of Israel. In fact Revelation gets very specific who He will raise to witness during that time, 144,000 Jews. Not specific enough He goes on to say 12,000 from specific tribes. Juday, Simeon etc. That makes it real clear God has a plan for the DNA seed of Abraham, Issac and ISrael (Jacob), in a future time. Which is after 70 A.D. and they shall be witnesses for 7 years during the tribualation, and then Christ will come and defeat the army of the Beast and False Prophet. The 144,000 have not yet come scripture and extra biblical church history bear that out. As do the 144,000 bear out that physical DNA children of Israel are still to be used for God and the nation is to be re-established for God's purpose. Scripture is clear.
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We follow the law of Christ, as that we walk in the the Holy Spirit, Not in the flesh, and so fulfill the will of God!

    Which means thatwe will end up living as God wants us too, its just Chrsit in us thru HS doing that work, not produced by us, its His good fruit!
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    there are though TWO peoples of God!

    ones glorified with Christ at his rapture/second coming, His church, and those remaining here "in the flesh" who are his during Millinium reign upon the earth!

    And there will also be the gloried OT believers who were not risen to glorified state when the church was!
     
  11. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    This may not be the intent of your question, Percho, but I took a stab at the issue of "all Israel being saved" here in this article:
    http://asterisktom.xanga.com/731105330/all-israel-will-be-saved-romans-1126/

    A short excerpt is here:

    TEXTUAL PROBLEMS
    Did you find the misquote? The problem is not in the words, but in the sentence itself. By quoting this phrase - "All Israel will be saved." - all together like that, the impression is given that the original was one small sentence. Well, in the Bible the sentence is much more involved. And this makes a big difference. Here is the whole sentence:
    "For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

    “The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
    And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
    For this is My covenant with them,
    When I take away their sins." Romans 11:25 - 27
    In my Greek New Testament from the beginning of verse 25 to the end of verse 27 (the quotation from Isaiah) is all one sentence. Let us work outward from our main sentence - or what we perhaps thought was a sentence! We now have: "...and so all Israel will be saved,". "And so" can better be interpreted as "and in this way" or "and thus". This already makes a difference because now we have to ask: In what way? The answer is twofold: both before and after the phrase. This from an earlier article of mine:
    "Context: This is where many, many translations and paraphrases do us a great disservice. How? Well, they effectively isolate "All Israel shall be saved" from the rest of the sentence! Did you know that the original sentence extends both before and after that more famous sound bite? The NIV and others especially separate the previous thought, cutting the sentence up. The sentence should read:

    "For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, and so [that is, in this manner] all Israel will be saved..."

    There are two clarifications as to all of Israel's being saved.
    A. It will be "in this manner" - the manner just described in the previous phrase: It will consist of both Jew and Gentile, the latter taking advantage of a blindness of the former. These two groups, Jews and Gentiles will thus make up the total number of the redeemed, the Israel of God.

    B. It will be "as it is written" - according to the two passages cited by Paul. This brings us down to the third hermeneutic principle."


    Sorry that it came out so small. See the article for further suggested interpretation on this passage in Romans.
     
  12. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    I should pay that site a visit for old times' sake. I used to be one of them back in my BJ days.:type:
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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  14. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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  15. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    So many problems in your post here, but I will just focus on one. Is Christ the king of the Church too? If you say "yes" then Christ will be king of two separate kingdoms, two separate peoples - with quite different ways of life.

    Yet Christ, in John, that He would make of the two flocks one.

    You must believe that there will always be this division between the peoples (sic) of God. This is grossly contrary to what Christ said he set out to accomplish - did accomplish - the tearing down of the wall of separation between Jew and gentile (Eph. 2).
     
  16. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    ,
    But you find nowhere in scripture that says Christ is King of the Church. He is the head, the master shepherd, the bride groom, the heir and joint heir with the Church. We are one body in Christ.

    Then we have Paul making it clear that the promise to Abraham cannot be disannuled,

    Gal. 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

    16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

    The promise is still in effect according to verse 17.
     
  17. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    We are not told this in Revelation. We are told this by you - because you were told this, at some point.
    And who do you imagine will be enslaving Israel as a nation in the future? I know about the historical enslavers like Rome.
    "I am with you" = "Immanuel", "God with us". This happened with Christ's coming. Why seek for a future fulfillment of that which is already fulfilled? He not only was with the believing Jews during His earthly ministry, He also promised He would be with them always.

    How can there be a future time when He will really, really be with them? See? By setting up this futurist interpretation you take away from the present one.

    This is the main complaint I have against this dispensational view (which I also had believed for decades). It takes away from many present promises and much teaching on the present kingdom.
     
  18. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Yes. I believe that the covenant relationship between man and God was broken at the Fall and needed to be restored by Christ (Hosea 6:7; Rom 5:17ff).

    I don't believe so. In v26, Judah is mixed in with Egypt, Moab and the other nations that God is going to punish. I believe that 'all the house of Israel' in v27 represents all the physical descendants of Jacob, the two nations.

    I think you are ignoring the context here. Peter ('Simeon') had spoken in v.7 about his visit to Cornelius 'a good while ago.' It is this that James is referring to in v. 14.
    The initial fulfilment of the Ezekiel and Jeremiah verses is the return from exile under Zerubbabel & Co. I do not hesitate to take the ultimate fulfilment to be the Gospel age when those circumcised in the heart are brought, not to Jerusalem below, but to Zion, the New Jerusalem (Heb 12:22-24; Rev 21:2, 12-14).
    'Known to God from eternity are all His works' (Acts 15:18). God never has to recast His plans, although it may seem like it to us. God used the physical children of Israel (Rom 9:8) to ensure that the Messiah would be born into a nation that had the Scriptures and some knowledge of the true God. The spiritual children of Israel (Rom 2:28-29; Phil 3:3 etc.) were the apple of God's eye from eternity (Eph 1:3-5).

    I hope that helps answer your questions. I'm sorry it's so short, but time is tight.

    Steve
     
  19. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps you find it "nowhere in scripture" because you are not looking for it. I see it many places in Scripture. The church in Acts seemed to think Christ was their King:

    Act 4:23 And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them.
    Act 4:24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
    Act 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
    Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
    Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
    Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
    Act 4:29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
    Act 4:30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.


    They were quoting Psalm 2:
    Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
    Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
    Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
    Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
    Psa 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
    Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
    Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
    Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
    Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
    Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
    Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
    Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.


    The writer of Hebrews also alluded to this Psalm (and Psalm 45):
    Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    So - here we have the Psalmist speaking of Christ being set up as king, the early church as recognizing His kingship already in effect at the time of their hardships - even the antagonists of Psalm 2 are identified as those very same enemies of Christ and the Jerusalem assembly. And we have further verification in Hebrews 1 (v.3 and 8) of Christ sitting at the right hand of God, and of God the Father saying to the Son, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever".

    All these things speak of present reigning of Christ as King.

    What is not to see?
     
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