Jesus and the death Penalty?

Yes. I would like you to read the one where God commands the Jews to slaughter millions of people.

That is the real Bible.

I would like you to read the one where God told Noah to institue the death penalty.

I would like you to read the one which NEVER abrogates that teaching.

And so that's why God told Noah to institute a law MEN were to shed men's blood if they committed murder???

Hmmmmm....

All they have to do is read the Bible that never says men are supposed to STOP killing murderers and those who threaten national security.

 

Gosh I don't need your stamp of approval. God is God ALONE. The command was given to the Jews and god spoke to their leaders when He intended for them to exact punishment unto death.

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Who was it given to if not the Jews? No one said it was exclusive for the Jews. when God comes and speaks to US and gives His righteous judgment to exact the same kind of final judgment , then we too may do that. But I'm still waiting for your proof that He's speaking to you or any other man today and telling them to take a life as He did with the Israelites.

You don't know what you think you know. The law is valid. But God ain't speaking to anyone telling them to do it as He did with the Israelites. As we are all guilty of breaking the same law and all worthy of death, why would He leave it to our equally unrighteous judgment as opposed to HIS righteous judgment?

 

The command came from Him when they righteously killed.

As soon as you read the one where the command of when to do so RIGHTEOUSLy always came from God.

And the command to RIGHTEOUSLY do so always came from GOD, not other men.

 

There is no Biblical correction you will submit to.......You still insist on this being given to the "Israelites". That's patently false, the "Israelites" have NOTHING to do with it, and the injunction you have been repeatedly shown in Scripture Pre-dates Abraham by Centuries.....

You are either willfully ignorant of this, or worse, you are intentionally being deceitful.

Genesis 9 is the Scripture you are given............and it is NOT given to "Israelites"..beyond that, you obfuscate and defy Scriptural correction.

Dust.....
feet....
off......
shake.....
I will answer you not again, except you cease this Zeitgeist of pretending that this is unique to Judaism or "Israelites" because that is false, and "Israelites" were not even a discernable people-group when the injunctions in Genesis 9 were given.

 

So God intended Noah to kill murderers and then when Noah died a few years after God commanded him to kill murderers, then everybody was to STOP doing this???

Do you not see how silly this is???

You could follow the same line of reasoning with tithing. The only ones who were supposed to do it were the ones who got it DIRECTLY from the mouth of God.

You could apply it to commands about adultery. the only ones who were supposed to be faithful to their wives were the ones who saw the lightening and heard the thunder on Mount Sinai!!

They are also the only ones who were ever supposed to remember the Sabbath day.

And since we cannot pass judgment on murderers then we cannot pass judgment on ANYBODY.

The shoplifter has to be let go.

The bank robber CANNOT be convicted because only GOD can pass righteous judgment.

Do you not see how silly that is???

 

Bible disagrees with ya. It was given to the Israelites.

Think whatever you like.

I didn't ask you to answer the first time.:laugh:

 

What I see is each time God wanted to take a life, HE gave the command to the leaders.

They are also the only ones who were ever supposed to remember the Sabbath day.[/quote]

The only problem with your analogy is that none of those had anything to do with one person having to make a judgment against another.

If that's the false conclusion you reach, run with it.

If you say so.

He's the only one who can RIGHTEOUSLY deem someone worthy of death. Otherwise we are all guilty of breaking the same law, and thus are incapable of righteously making such a judgment.

 

Then his commands don't apply to any of us.

He gave ALL of them to leaders.

Wrong again.

God instituted the Sabbath from the very beginning about two thousand years before he gave the command to the Israelites.

All of them did.

If one is an open adulterer the church is to judge him and excommunicate him. This requires passing judgment.

There were these people in the Old Testament called "JUDGES."

They were not God.


They were people and they were expected, generation after generation after generation to judge God's people.

This "nobody passes judgment but God" mess is something of your own making.

It is certainly not biblical.

 

This leads directly to anarchy and is thus the position of a mad man.

NOBODY but you thinks that we should not have people passing judgment on criminals of all sorts.

Your line of reasoning is silly.

 

I notice that when someone disagrees with you, that person according to you is biased. That's funny.

You believe the scriptures are inerrant, do you not? I don't use that word, but I choose to believe what Jesus said and taught. Strange that you do not.

 

I don't lust for her blood, you idiot, and I highly resent you saying that. Look, the broad was guilty; there is absolutely no doubt about it. But in rambling on about that, you misrepresented and misunderstood my point, which was this: The fleshly part of us may want to see murderers executed, but Jesus did not condone that, and we should follow Him, not our own fleshly desires.

 

I go by Jesus's words and example. He stopped the execution of the woman caught in adultery. He preached the Sermon on the Mount. He stated, "You have heard it said, but I say to you..."

Jesus clearly had an ethical message that was quite different from that presented in parts of the OT. That cannot be denied.

 

God did not kill Jesus. That is part of a definition of the atonement that I find, well, I'll not describe it here.

I believe we are to follow Jesus as the founder of our faith. And His ethic cannot be equated with that of parts of the OT.

 

That's dualism.

The OT has not been abrogated. Gods values did not change in 3 AD.

 

No, and those values are supremely exemplified in the life and teachings of Jesus. When Jesus explicitly disavowed certain aspects of OT morality and justice, to whom do you listen? Did Jesus affirm the OT teaching of "an eye for an eye"? No, He did not.

 

:applause: exactly. The very WHOLE of His fulfilled law shows that He has not intended for us to make a decision of death . That is perhaps why Scripture makes it clear that we're all guilty of breaking the same law.

And if you believe that another person is worthy of death because of his sin, then believe that you are too.

We always want to believe that the other guy is worse than we are and due the worst punishment. But scripture directs us to do just the opposite.“Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.” Philippians 2:3-4

 

I used to support the death penalty. I now believe for Christians to support the death penalty is contrary scripture and the specific command of God's Word to show mercy toward the worst of sinners.

I Tim. 1:16 "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life." NAS

The Apostle Paul had just explained how he was the foremost of sinners because of His persecution of the Christians. He says in Acts 26:10 he persecuted Christians even to the point of casting his vote to have them killed. Paul was a murderer of Christians.

The I Tim 1:16 passage is clear. Jesus showed mercy to the murderer Paul as an example of perfect patience to be followed by those who would believe in Christ for salvation.

Support for the death penalty, IMHO, is contrary Christ's command to follow His example of perfect patience when dealing with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul.

peace to you:praying:

 

I understand what you're trying to say; but Paul didn't break the rules of the government. If the government found him guilty of murder, and sentenced him to death, would you oppose the government?