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Featured Jesus and the Jews Who Wanted to Murder Him

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Oct 14, 2020.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His own Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me. 31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.” (John's Gospel, Chapter 5)

    The words in this passage are addressed by Jesus Christ, to the Jews who wanted to murder Him, for claiming that God was His “own Father”, and “ making Himself equal with God”. Note, it says, “ But Jesus answered them” (v.17), and “Then Jesus answered and said to them” (v.19); “I say to you” (v.24); “ I say these things that you may be saved” (v.34), etc.

    Firstly, these words are not spoken to “believers”, but to the Jews who wanted to murder the Lord.

    Secondly, here Jesus tells these same Jews,

    “Most assuredly, I say to YOU, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life” (v.24)

    “Most assuredly, I say to YOU, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.” (25)

    “but I say these things that YOU may be saved.” (34)

    “YOU search the Scriptures, for in them you think YOU have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But YOU are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.” (39-40)

    These words are NOT addressed to “the elect”, but to the UNSAVED Jews, who were 100% AGAINST Jesus Christ, and conspired with the authorities to have Jesus MURDERED! YET, it is to THESE same Jews, that Jesus speaks this words. IF these same Jews were to HEAR His Words and BELIEVE in the Gospel Message that He was preaching, THEY could be saved! The lost CAN hear the Gospel Message for their salvation, and are NOT dead to this, as some teach! Jesus even tells these Jews, “but I say these things that YOU may be saved.”. Yes, the very Jews who sought Jesus' death, were the ones that Jews wanted to believe and get saved! No amount of twisting of these words can change the FACT that Jesus also, not only died for these Jews, but also wanted them saved! Even though Jesus here preaches to THEM, they were “UNWILLING” to accept what Jesus was saying, so that they could get saved!

    This IS exactly what Jesus means when He said, “For God SO LOVES the entire human race”, because it is His desire that NONE are lost! It is some with their “theological” nonsense who think that they know better than God Almighty, and argue against the Words of God!
     
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Ah, that's exactly what God does to everyone. He (as do we today) proclaims the Gospel to all. All are "unsaved". All must repent and believer the Gospel.

    Not sure how you twist the Gospel mandate to say these sinners who hated Jesus and wanted Him dead were somehow not "elect"? How do YOU know what God did?

    That is what I was - hating God and rejecting the Savior. But I was, of course, chosen by Him. These words of Jesus were to the worst of sinners. Yep. Bob.

    Thankfully, thru God's grace this evil, rebellious sinner did "hear" (understand) and did "believe". Because I was good? I was smart? I was better than the guy who didn't believe? Boy, a faulty understanding of grace can lead to elevating ME into "doing" something.
     
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  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We do not know how many of them might have been part of that 3000 that received Jesus as Lord at Pentecost!
     
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  4. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    I go by what the Bible says, and not what "doctrine" suggests. The twisting is done by those who refuse to accept verses like John 3:16, that clearly shows that God's wants the entire human race saved! Not as twised by some, to mean just the elect. Calvinist/Reformed like to argue from "silence" rather than what the Bible actually says!
     
  5. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    [​IMG]

    Who crucified Jesus Christ?... Quit throwing the blame on the Jews... Everyone on this board including me, is guilty of crucifying Jesus Christ!... Or are you to sanctimonious, to hold the hammer and the nails?... How far does your forgiveness go?... Can you forgive yourself for crucifying Jesus?... If he died for you his blood is on your hands and on the hands of everyone he died for... The OT tells of his coming and the NT, tells of what he accomplished according to Gods plan when he came, and fully completed what he was sent in the world to do... And to the OP answer one question for me, how was our Salvation possible if Jesus wasn't crucified?... I think you need to change your handle SavedByGrace, since you've been on here, you don't understand it... Btw I love this picture, it's called Forgiveness and if you put yourself in the picture, then you can understand what the true love of God is!... PRICELESS!... Brother Glen:)
     
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  6. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    more double-talk just to avoid dealing with what the Bible says in John chapter 5, because it goes against the norms of Reformed/Calvinistic doctrines!
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    all those whom the Father has given to me shall shall be saved, is mumbo jumbo talk?
     
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    How about the rest of this verse? "and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.". two classes here, 1 those given by the Father, like John the Baptist, Paul, etc; and others who respond to the Gospel Message
     
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    "whoever comes" in John 6:37, is the Greek, ερχομενον, is in the middle voice, "themselves come", in response to the preaching of the Gospel Message.
     
  10. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    This is ALWAYS the bottom line when men attempt to generate salvation from within themselves.

    [John 3:18-20 KJV] 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    • Here is the same result in John 3

    [John 6:43-44 KJV] 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    • Here is the same result in John 6

    [John 10:25-26 KJV] 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    • Here is the same result in John 10

    [Romans 1:18-21 KJV] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    [Romans 3:10-12 KJV] 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    [Ephesians 2:1-3 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    Which is why the only solution is for God to roll up His sleeves and make the FIRST MOVE:
    • [Ephesians 2:4-5 KJV] 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    • [Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
     
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    I most certainly do NOT believe this!
     
  12. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Is our salvation 100% of God's doing + nothing, 100% of man's doing + nothing, or a __% / __% split between God's work and man's work?

    Most who take shots at election/sovereignty of God in salvation will automatically respond: It is 100% of God, but I must . . . and that will demonstrate whether or not they understand election/sovereign of God in salvation

    BTW, welcome bro. I've been fighting serious illness and off since Labor Day and missed meeting new members.
     
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  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    so the sinner does not have to "repent and believe", as Jesus says in Mark 1:15? After Peter's first "sermon", the people were "cut to the heart and said, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we DO?” (Acts 2:37), to which Peter did not say, "you do nothing", instead Peter told them to "REPENT...for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (38). THIS is the Bible's Way!
     
  14. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    God empowers the sinner to repent and believe, so it is 100% of God's doing + nothing.

    ... because John 5:40 "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."
    • [John 3:5-6 NASB] 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    • [Acts 16:14 NASB] 14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
    • [Romans 9:16 NASB] 16 So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
    • [Ephesians 2:4-5 NASB] 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
     
  15. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Do you not claim that YOUR FAITH (faith generated from within you) is the prerequisite for God taking action and saving you?
     
  16. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    If, as you say, "God empowers the sinner to repent and believe", then we are no more than a bunch of pre-programmed machines! Why would Jesus Himself say to the Jews in John 5, as I have shown, "39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.”, where it is very clear that it is up to the sinner to repent? Their refusal is not something that God causes in them, but their unbelief in the Lord and His Ways. If God were the "cause" of the repenting, then Jesus' words here are a waste of time, as it is not up to these Jews to accept or reject the Gospel, because an outside force, God, is the One Who either "empowers" them or not. This is no more than fatalistic, and so very unbiblical!
     
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    do you not know what the Bible says? FAITH comes by hearing (accepting) the Word of God, "So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ." (Romans 10:17). Every human being has some "faith" in them, however, no all are interested in the things of the Lord, and don't exercise this in the Lord.
     
  18. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    God does not make people sin, but that does not mean that people do not have an innate desire to sin.
    They ARE unwilling! The very fact that they were standing there proves that they were physically ABLE.
    Go back and READ the verses in Post #10.

    God is the CAUSE of the CHANGE in their heart.
    Go back and READ the verses in Post #14.

    I present verses that teach what I believe and you falsely accuse me of being unbiblical.
    Denial, much? :Whistling
     
  19. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Active Member

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    Yes He is, but through the preaching of the Gospel which is how He saves theose who choose to respond and repent. Read this,

    "10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2)

    THIS is why sinners end up in hell, THEY REFUSE to accept God's Terms!
     
  20. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Man must repent (turn from sin) and believe (turn to God). And this happens how for a person?

    God said "There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

    So man CANNOT turn from sin and SEEK God. He doesn't even WANT to or UNDERSTAND his doom. Repenting/believing are good things, right? He cannot do anything GOOD.

    If salvation depends on man "doing" something, it is not 100% of God.
     
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