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Featured Jesus Christ is NOT God's criterion for election?!

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by George Antonios, Dec 4, 2019 at 11:27 AM.

  1. George Antonios

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    In the course of a thread in this forum, a couple of brethren asserted that Jesus Christ is not God's criterion for election (I didn't say "salvation", I said "election").
    If I understood their position correctly, it's something like this:
    We don't know what is God's criterion for electing someone; that criterion is a mystery.
    God elects someone unto salvation from eternity past, and then saves that person in time through Jesus Christ.
    That is, you weren't chosen unto salvation because of Christ, but Christ is the one who works out your salvation by justifying you and ushering you into heaven.
    That is, Christ is simply God's means of effecting the salvation, but not the cause for your being chosen unto salvation.
    I wanted to know if all Calvinists here agree with this view, or is it only the view of those two men?
     
  2. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Given that the Son has always existed as God within the Godhead, it may be too much of a separation of economies within the Godhead to suggest He had nothing to do with the election of persons to salvation.

    Peace to you
     
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  3. George Antonios

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    The question is not whether Christ, as the divine Word of God, had a "part" within the Godhead in electing some or not.
    The question is: what was the criterion for election that the Godhead (with the participation of the Word) based himself on in order to choose some but not others.
    Two men frowardly answered that the criterion for election (I didn't say "salvation") does not involve Jesus Christ.
    What sayest thou?
     
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  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    God mentions two aspects of His Covenant Choice.
    His eternal love, and His own glory.
    God is not a respecter of persons. All elected were guilty sinners.
    Keep in mind that Everything God does is perfect.
    He is perfect in Holiness, wisdom, and righteousness.
    His choice of the elect multitudes cannot be increased or diminished
     
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  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    The criterion for election found in scripture, as for as I can remember, mentions the counsel of His will and so on. I see no evidence in scripture that God elected persons to salvation based on their foreseen faith in Christ.

    Peace to you
     
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  6. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    In my non-Calvinist view, Deterministic doctrines unavoidably leads to the denial of the true Divine judgment from The Mediator upon the divinely designed creation of creatures with the attributes of human volition for which the loving promise of hope was made.

    The Calvinist/Determinist’ logic reduces the duties (means) of Jesus Christ from The Mediator to a pre-programmed subservient puppet of the Father and thus fails to recognize the distinction between the Persons of the Father and Jesus Christ. In effect Deterministic views must deny the hypostatic union in Jesus’ nature to have human freedom to become a sacrifice and it discounts the true need of a Mediator between the natural body and the Spiritual body which does the job to deliver our souls unto the Father, unblemished, because of the cleansing real time work of the Son.

    The true criterion for election becomes a meaningless cause according to The Doctrines of Pre-Deterministic Grace and in effect the denial of the purposeful duties of The Mediator is yet another example leading to Theological Fatalism and even bordering on heresy: “That to deny the humanity of Christ is just as much a heresy as to deny His Divinity.”
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Are you asking this based upon say how Karl Barth viewed it?
     
  8. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    " according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."
    ( Ephesians 1:4-6 )

    IMO, there's your criterion...the good pleasure of His will.
    As for the Godhead,

    I do not see anywhere in Scripture that Christ Himself chose His bride...
    God the Father chose a people for Himself ( Isaiah 43:21, Romans 9:21-24, 1 Peter 2:9 ), gave them to His Son ( John 6:39, John 6:65, John 17:2 ) and caused them to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 ) in time.
    His Son, by whom everything was created ( John 1:1-3 ) came, lived, died, and rose again the 3rd day ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 ) to make atonement for them ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11 ), defeat the works of the Devil ( 1 John 3:8 ), and many other important truths.

    The criterion for election is the purpose and grace of God ( 2 Timothy 1:9 ), which includes His deciding to have mercy on someone ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ) or not to.
    That purpose and grace are manifested through Jesus Christ as our best Friend, Saviour and Lord,
    Who only gives eternal life, which is to know Him and His Father ( John 17:3 ), to as many as God the Father gave Him ( John 17:2 ).

    The Holy Spirit is the One who sanctifies His children ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ), God the Father calls them ( 2 Thessalonians 2:14, 2 Timothy 2:8-9 ), and the Spirit acts as Comforter ( John 14:16, 1 Thessalonians 4:18 ), Teacher ( 1 John 2:20-27 ) and Overcomer ( Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:16, 1 John 4:4 ).

    So, the Godhead plays separate roles in the lives of His children.
    The criterion for election is not and never has been their faith, which functions as the evidence of their salvation ( Hebrews 11:1 ), and by it they do many good works and endure many trials and tribulations ( Hebrews 11 ).

    It has always been Him and His purposes.
    The God I worship does as He wishes with sinful men ( Daniel 4:35, Romans 9:14-18 ), who have nothing to stand on except His mercy and grace alone.


    Finally,

    I think that many of the answers that you find, when asking some "Calvinists" about the criterion of election, are based on how far along in their personal studies one has come...
    For example, I would not have given you the same answer even 10 years ago that I do now.;)

    This is what has led to me stating that the Bible cannot be "systematized", at least fully.
    One cannot systematize that which is only understood by the power and grace of God.
    it also takes study ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ) by which one grows ( 1 Peter 2:2 ) in both knowledge and grace ( 2 Peter 3:18 ).

    God must be the one who opens the hearts ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ) and understandings ( Luke 24:45 ).
    It is either given to a person to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God ( Matthew 13:11 ) or it is not.
    One is either "of God" ( John 8:47 ), or not .


    May God bless you sir.:)
     
    #8 Dave Gilbert, Dec 4, 2019 at 7:03 PM
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019 at 7:25 PM
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  9. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I'm in doubt of election all together in that it applies to Gentiles. I'm not a Calvinist. If election exist for Gentiles can you show that it is a fact. Not just an assumption. It seems to me that most believe they are elect based upon Christ choosing the disciples. We all know the Jews are elect because scripture clearly says so. It seems to me if we are elect as everyone claims then scripture should clearly say so. If it does not isn't this a false doctrine in the church?
    MB
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Well, our Lord Jesus Christ is identified as the sole cause of all caused things, John 1:3. One primary characteristic of those who are born again, is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And they are of God's elect whom God in His word says He foreknows, Romans 8:29, 1 Peter 1:2, Ephesians 1:4.
     
  11. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    And who He foreknows are Jews. Gentiles were not elect in the beginning because they were not His people.
    MB
     
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  12. George Antonios

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    Guys, we've been through this in a previous thread: What is God's criterion for election?
    To answer the counsel of his own will is a non-answer. It simply kicks the can further down the road: what criterion was that counsel based on to choose someone?! Everyone finally answered "we don't know", and a couple, frowardly, yet at least consistently with their own theology, affirmed that that criterion could not have been Jesus Christ.

    The question in this thread is, who else agrees that Jesus Christ is not God's criterion for election?
     
  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    The Jews were elected for a people unto God for the express purpose of a people for Christ to come to earth through. It's simple to me that God would choose a people for the purpose of Christ. The Jews at the time were the only people to believe in Jehovah God. God would not choose that Christ should come into the world except through His own people. Christ came to save His people but they rejected Him So Jesus gave repentance to the Gentiles because some of them actually believed in Him as the Messiah. In spite of the Blindness the Calvinist claim for everyone.
    MB
     
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Of course, not one of these ideas are found in scripture. There are none who are so blind as those who will not see...is that the expression?
     
  15. George Antonios

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    @MB is far closer to the truth than you are.

    The Jews were elected for a people unto God
    Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect,

    for the express purpose of a people for Christ to come to earth through
    Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
    John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

    The Jews at the time were the only people to believe in Jehovah God
    2Sa 7:23 And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?
    Amos 3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

    Christ came to save His people but they rejected Him
    John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    So Jesus gave repentance to the Gentiles
    Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
    Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

    because some of them actually believed in Him as the Messiah
    Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

    This would be less painful were it not for the smugness wherewith you dismissed MB's point
     
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  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    What might be more painful is when I answered this later when I go to my laptop. you find a kindred spirit but also someone who also doesn't understand the extent of the teaching
    We will show that later because you've taken it upon yourself to request such an answer.
     
  17. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Who is we? Understanding isn't the problem when answering your post. I understand I just do not believe what you have to say about the Bible and what it says
    MB
     
    #17 MB, Dec 5, 2019 at 4:48 PM
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019 at 4:53 PM
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Many have asked you to interact to the scriptures responding to what they offered you. When you offer empty replies it demonstrates a lack of understanding.

    I will demonstrate it for you if you like
     
  19. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Don't scold me and tell me I don't understand. What you mean by saying this is implying that I must be lost and not saved according to what you your self claim to believe. Not to mention your judgement of me is unbecoming of a Christian. You are no better than I am so get off your high horse and stop spouting off.
    MB
     
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Where do you see me implying that you're lost where did I use the word lost in these posts could you quote that for me
     
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