1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Jesus Christ is NOT God's criterion for election?!

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by George Antonios, Dec 4, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,317
    Likes Received:
    179
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So it's not Jesus Christ. You answered.
     
  2. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    86
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Thank you for posting it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,331
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    George, you make no sense. You have some weird thoughts.
    God is Jesus. Jesus is God. God doesn't tell us his criterion for election. He tells us his election is from before the foundation of the world. He tells us that we were dead in our trespasses and sin, but God made us alive (not human merit) with Christ. We are seated in the heavenlies with Christ.
    I believe what God says. I have no need, nor curiosity to know more. I am content with what God chooses and I don't question his will.
    Do you question God's will and choice, George?
     
  4. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,317
    Likes Received:
    179
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yet again, you declare that Jesus Christ is not God's criterion for our election. What hellish declaration!
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  5. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,331
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I have no clue what you are saying George.
    Please share scripture where God gives the criterion he used when he elected before the foundation of the world. We can start there.
    Until then, you are merely speaking philosophy with nothing to do about God.
    Bring scripture or admit you have nothing.
     
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    48,816
    Likes Received:
    2,889
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You make a good point.

    Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

    The criteria for being elected is being in Him. One is not elect until one is "in Him".
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,317
    Likes Received:
    179
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The criterion for election, is, evidently, getting into Jesus Christ by faith:

    Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us
    in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    The election wasn't made before the foundation of the world anymore than Christ was actually slain from the foundation of the world (Rev.17:8). It's simply that God foreknew who would believe on Christ and foreordained that those would-be believers would be holy and without blame before him in love and he did that before the foundation of the world.

    This is confirmed by Peter who wrote:

    1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, [HOW WERE WE ELECT? BY A MYSTERIOUS, RANDOM DECREE? NO. THE ANSWER:] through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    Were you sanctified of the Spirit before the foundation of the world? Of course not. You were sanctified in time when you believed on Jesus Christ. And since you were elect...through sanctification of the Spirit - which happened in time when you believed -you were therefore also elect in time when you believed.
    Christ was slain from the foundation of the world (Rev.17:8) but he wasn't. He was slain in time on Calvary. It's just that God foreknew that event and made preparation for it from the foundation of the world, just as with our salvation.
    Peter says unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ because God only sanctifies and opens the hearts of those who love and believe the truth revealed to them of God. Watch how Paul confirms that interpretation:


    2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation [HOW DID HE CHOOSE THOSE HE WOULD SAVE? BY AN ETERNAL, MYSTERIOUS, RANDOM DECREE? NO. THE ANSWER:] through sanctification of the Spirit AND [NOT "UNTO" HERE] BELIEF OF THE TRUTH:

    Again, were you sanctified of the Spirit, and did you believe the truth of the gospel before the foundation of the world? Of course not! God chose to open the hearts unto salvation of those who would believe the truth and receive the Holy Ghost - in time. But he made the choice of saving only those would believe on Jesus Christ from the beginning [and this is assuming that the expression from the beginning here means "the beginning of the world" because Paul spoke to the Philippians about the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia. But I still interpreted the beginning here the way a Calvinist would interpret it].

    That's the simple and clear interpretation of the scriptures, not a philosophical system that has men chosen apart from Christ! Dear God what blasphemy! Any conclusion which has a man being chosen apart from Christ is the conclusion of a false development. And you brethren will hold unto that wicked teaching because, hey, at least you can claim great humility thereby [and a lessened burden to win souls, as has been confessed by some on threads]! At what cost? At the cost of the preeminence of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Repent.
     
    #127 George Antonios, Dec 13, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
  8. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,331
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are conflating election with sanctification. They are two different things.
    Your verses do not provide the answer to your question despite the fact that you think they answer your question.
    What you claim as "evidently" is not evidence at all.
    God does not reveal his criterion for election.
    Sanctification is an ongoing process. God is disciplining us (Hebrews 12) who are his adopted children by election. God does not adopt us and then leave us to continue as an undisciplined orphan rummaging through dumpsters for survival in a rebel land. God teaches us what being in his family means and how he expects us to act. He works to make us holy. He brings us through the process of sanctification.
     
  9. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,317
    Likes Received:
    179
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, I simply told you what the scriptures told you, that we are elect ...through sanctification. Did Paul and Peter conflate the two?
     
  10. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,331
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Peter is not laying out God's criterion for how or why humans were elected by God.

    1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

    Peter is talking to the elect and telling them that the Spirit is sanctifying them (making them holy.) Why? For obedience to Christ.

    Peter is not laying out what God's decision making process was for the elect. God doesn't tell us.
     
  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    48,816
    Likes Received:
    2,889
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Do not forget that some do not fully understand what sanctification really is. Many assume it is the growth of a Christian when it really encompasses the salvation, growth, and redemption.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    13,535
    Likes Received:
    1,858
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Six Hour Warning
    This thread will be closed sometime after 8 PM Pacific.
     
  13. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,317
    Likes Received:
    179
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I can also prove any doctrine I want by choosing the Bible version of my liking. The fact that you had to switch away from the word of God to a different reading exposes the bankruptcy of the philosophy that is Calvinism.
     
  14. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,331
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What? Are you a KJV only person? Does it offend you that I use the ESV? Is that the best argument and rebuttal you can make? Last I knew, the original text was not written in 1500 UK English. Am I mistaken?
    I stand with my position regarding 1 Peter 1.
     
  15. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,317
    Likes Received:
    179
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, you stand with a re-written text which better matches your philosophical bias.
     
  16. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,331
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is your argument regarding God's criteria for election? I can't be correct because I didn't use your preferred English translation?
    George, you just lost all credibility.
     
  17. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,317
    Likes Received:
    179
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No sir. A man loses credibility when he moves away from the God-honoured, God-used, English text of the reformation, to a Bible perversion which was but a revision of the Revised Standard Version - the liberal and most controversial Bible version ever, and one which consistently makes changes to the words of the living God that match the Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation (NWT). Compare for instance how the ESV changes the KJB to match the NWT in: Luke 4:4, Isaiah 14:12, Daniel 3:25, Matthew 5:22, Matthew 12:47, Matthew 17:21, Matthew 18:11, Mark 7:16, Matthew 23:14, Mark 11:26, Mark 9:46, Mark 10:24, Mark 15:28, Luke 2:33/43, Luke 13:8, Luke 16:23, Luke 17:36, Luke 23:17, Luke 23:42, John 1:18, John 5:4, John 18:36, Acts 4:30, Acts 8:37, Romans 14:10, 1Corinthians 1:18, Colossians 1:14, 1Timothy 3:16, 1Timothy 6:10, 2Timothy 2:15, etc.
    In each of these instance (and I haven't finished studying the verses) the ESV changes agree with the NWT, undermining the deity of Christ, or some other blessed Bible truth, and works mainly off of Catholic manuscripts.
    THAT, brother, is how a man loses credibility.
    I'm an native Arabic speaker and English isn't even my 2nd language and I dislike the reading of the King James Bible in many places, but I don't mess with the Book. I accept it as it is in truth, the word of the living God. If each of us is going to start picking his pet version that promotes his favoured doctrine, then forget it. We can never again search the scriptures to find out the truth. What a sad, sad state of things.
    I'm a Middle Eastern man who owes his national Arabic Bible to the King James Bible, and I tell you intellectuals who stand in judgment of the King James Bible: YOU sirs, betrayed the reformation text that God gave you and which God used to free you from Rome, and YOU sirs, have made our job of witnessing to Arabic Muslims immeasurably more difficult as they constantly deride us for the multiplicity of English Bible versions. That, THAT, is how you lose credibility.
    Take a lesson from a great preacher, and a Calvinist, Charles Spurgeon, who, in commenting on 1Timothy 2:4, and in reference to the King James Bible text, wrote: "My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself, for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it," —Salvation By Knowing the Truth

    Pick ANY perversion of the Bible you care: you are still a man that believes he was elect APART from Jesus Christ. And you talk about credibility?!...



     
    #137 George Antonios, Dec 13, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
  18. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,331
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The KJV is less accurate to the original Greek than the ESV, which is why I use the ESV. I suggest you switch to a more accurate translation.
     
  19. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,317
    Likes Received:
    179
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Haven't we heard that tune parroted before?!

    Again, Pick ANY perversion of the Bible you care: you are still a man that believes he was elect APART from Jesus Christ.
     
  20. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    13,535
    Likes Received:
    1,858
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This thread is closed.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...