All you have proved is that some will not be saved but that does not mean they can't be saved later on. His sheep are already saved or they would not be His sheep This in no way proves election. If there is election of Gentiles there would be a passage stating that God has elected the Gentiles. It says God has elected the Jews and calls them elect. Scripture never calls a Gentile elect. I realize Calvinist use Eph 1 1-10 to prove there election yet not once in Ephesians. Is there ever one Gentile ever called elect . They assume the synagogue was just packed with Gentiles but that is speculation. Gentiles were not accepted in the Synagogues. Gentiles are not to this day respected by the Jews. Generally Gentiles were non believers because of it.Though some have converted to Judaism .
Athens is the only place where Paul was recorded to go to and preach to the Gentiles and when he did He called none of them elect even after some believed. So just where is this election of the Gentiles in scripture and why do you suppose that they are elect with out scripture that says so?
MB
Jesus said, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me.” ~ John 12:32
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Scott Downey, Dec 28, 2019.
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You know as well as I there are many that refute Calvinism.Including myself .
You are self convinced you are right because what you believe is not in scripture.
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"Coming to Christ" has always been understood as an abbreviated phrase of "Coming to Christ in faith for eternal life" which is the equivalent of "believing in Christ" as seen paralleled in John 6:35. Why redefine what's already clear and established?
And is "arriving in Christ" the same as "being transferred into Christ" from your last statement above - in which case we run into the same issue I'd raised in my original question, right?
Two concerns with such reinterpretations -
1. When you equate "coming to Christ" with "being transferred in Christ", you're switching an action attributed to man in his coming to be an action attributed to God in His transferring. Isn't this an error in interpreting to swap what's described as man's response to being taken as God's response?
2. How do we ignore all the parallelism in John 5:38-47 in the context of "believing Christ"?
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Should this be read as equal to "And God will not transfer ye in Christ, that ye might have life." ? -
Hearing, Learning and Coming to Christ are all responses of man. While the commonly accepted interpretation is that Hearing and Learning leads to the Coming in Faith / Believing - you equate Learning with the Believing itself just so the Coming to Christ can be redefined. Why? If your only goal was to conclude "Therefore some of those drawn are given, and all given have been drawn.", can't this be done without these re-definitions? Are there other conclusions you are attempting to uphold with these?
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Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
See, Paul is writing to Gentiles here! -
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Col 2:13 says nothing about the elect
Why are you upset about it does it bother you about what I'm saying
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You first addressed me out of the blue and said you're not a Calvinist. I had no clue why you wrote this. I told you that I never said you were. Then you said
"Is that the point of our disagreement? We are both not Calvinist, right?" I didn't know we had a disagreement. Please show me where I said you were.
a Calvinist
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2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
As per your interpretation if this is not addressed to me, an uncircumcised gentile in the flesh, then I am not Peter's brother in Christ and the entire epistle by extension was not addressed to me even though Peter begins the epistle in v.1 with "to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" -
I'm sorry that you're uncomfortable. it's just that Calvinist make such a big deal out of there presumed election from before the foundation of the world that I had to look at it more closely. If you read 1st Peter 1 you will not see a Gentile even mentioned. We know for sure the Jews are elect yet this is not a reason to assume Gentiles are also elect. To believe this I need confirmation from scripture not men. I read scripture every day and completely through it every year. And I don't ever remember it telling me I'm elect or that Gentiles are elect. Not only this sir but I have never read of the necessity of being elect in order to have Salvation. Scripture never says this that I'm aware of.
Obviously you believe election is a requirement for Salvation. So why would you believe something that isn't mentioned in the Bible as if it were. How do you know you are elect. I don't need assumptions just scriptural facts
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George Antonios Well-Known Member
Christ said he would draw all men, not "drag" all men. Our Calvinist brethren read "draw" as "drag".
You can resist God's drawing, as God himself tells you in Hosea:
Hos 11:3 I taught Ephraim [matching John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me]. also to go, taking them by their arms; but they knew not that I healed them.
Hos 11:4 I drew them [matching John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.] with cords of a man [the prophetic double application is the man Christ Jesus, as he said: John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.], with bands of love [John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.] : and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them.
Hos 11:5 He shall not return into the land of Egypt, but the Assyrian shall be his king, because they refused to return.
See that? God drew them and yet they knew not and they refused.
It's "draw", friends, not "drag". You can resist a drawing. Just ask the council which heard Stephen's preaching. -
Scott Downey Well-Known Member
Read Hebrews 8, from v10 on God tells us it is 100% as a guarantee that they will be His people, and He will be their God.
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,
says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. -
George Antonios Well-Known Member
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 IT IS WRITTEN IN THE PROPHETS, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
If the Lord of glory went back to the prophets to make his point about drawing men, can't I?
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