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Featured Jesus THE Creator - Part 1

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Oct 29, 2020.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Is Jesus Christ THE actual Creator of the entire universe, or the secondary, by whom one greater, God the Father, created?

    There are some who use Scriptures like John 1:3, and Hebrews 1:2, to assume that God the Father is the “source” of Creation, and that He Created through the Lord Jesus Christ. The verses read;

    John 1:3, “All things were made through him”

    Hebrews 1:1-2, “God...by his Son...through whom also he made the worlds”

    The King James Version, and some others, read “by”.

    It is the word “through”, that is used to “prove” that Jesus Christ is not the actual Creator, which is God the Father, Who Creates through Jesus Christ. This is because of the meaning of the Greek preposition, “dia” is defined by some here, as having the meaning of “through”.

    Dr George Winer, “In Jo. i.3, 15, the per of mediate agency is justified by the doctrine of the Logos, comp. Origen in loc.” (A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament Greek, p. 474). Dr Winer was a Unitarian, so we can expect this from him.

    But, we also have the Evangelical Greek Grammar by H E Dana and J R Mantey, "Although dia is occasionally used to express agency, it does not approximate to the full strength of hupo. This distinction throws light on Jesus' relation to the creation, implying that Jesus was not the absolute, independent creator, but rather the intermediate agent in creation. see Jn.1:3; Heb.1:2" ( A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p.102)

    Dr George E Ladd, in his, A Theology of the New Testament, says: "John asserts that the Logos was the agent of creation. He is not the ultimate source of creation, but the agent through whom God, the ultimate source, created the world. This same theology is expressed in Paul's words: that all things come from (ek) God through (dia) Christ (I Cor.8:6; see also Col.1:16)" (p.242. 1977 edition).

    Why I say that this is no more than an assumption, is because these “authorities” have simply given the usual meaning of the preposition “dia”. However, as we shall see, that the “usual” meaning is not the only one, nor always the right one.

    Take Hebrews 2:10, where we read,

    “For it became Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the author of their salvation perfect through sufferings”

    This is speaking of God the Father, where the words, “through whom are all things”, are used for Him. This, in the Greek is the preposition “dia”, and is also in the genitive case, like John 1:3, and Hebrews 1:2. Hebrews 2:10 is also speaking of the Creation of the entire universe, and here, like in John 1:3, and Hebrews 1:2, the Greek preposition “dia”, is used in exactly the same way. Are we to understand from Hebrews 2:10, that someone else was Creating through God the Father, Who is here the intermediate agent in creation, as the Greek scholars say of Jesus Christ?

    Romans 11:36 is another verse that speaks of Creation by God the father:

    “For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen”

    Here, like Hebrews 2:10, we have the Greek preposition “dia”, also in the genitive case, like John 1:3, and Hebrews 1:2, which has been translated “through”. Which brings us to the same question, is God the Father, the intermediate agent in creation, through Whom the universe is created? If, in these two cases, Hebrews 2:10 and Romans 11:36, the Greek preposition “dia”, does not have the meaning of intermediate agent, then why is this meaning forced in places like John 1:3, and Hebrews 1:2, when used for Jesus Christ? There are some who, because of their theological bias, that somehow God the Father is the “source” of all things, that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, though seen also as “God”, are not fully “equal” with the Father, even in the Godhead!

    We need to look more closely at this Greek preposition “dia”, and its uses, to get a better understanding. The Greek scholar, Dr A.T. Robertson, says this;

    "The word dia often conceals its root meaning. That is ‘two,’ ‘twain,’ ‘in two.’ This original conception appears clearly in some compound words." A. T. Robertson, The Minister and His Greek New Testament, ch. iv, p.29; also, C.F.D. Moule; An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, p.54; H E Dana and J R Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p.101)

    The ancient Greek poet, Homer, used this preposition, with the meaning, "Through, by means of, by virtue of, by the help or working of" (Richard John Cunliffe; A Lexicon of Homeric Dialect, p.91). "By the help or working of", where two or more can do something, by equal participation, where there is no need to distinguish between the work done. And, “Mutual operation: with one another” (Henry Smith [G Crusius]; A Complete Greek and English Lexicon for the Poems of Homer, page, 106. 1871 ed)

    It is very clear, that there is not a hard-fast “rule” in Greek grammar, that says the preposition “dia”, in the genitive case, is always to have the meaning of “through, intermediate”.

    There is a very interesting example of this preposition “dia”, in the genitive case, used for God the Father and Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:9 reads, “God is faithful, through (dia) whom ye were called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord”. Of which Dr Samuel Green tells us, “The Father is represented as acting on behalf of his Son, to bring Christians into fellowship with Him” (Handbook to the Grammar of the Greek Testament, page 246). Here we have the Father as the intermediate agent, Who is acting for the Lord Jesus Christ. This does not in any way show any “subordination”, but rather “co-operation”, between God the Father, and God the Son, and also shows their coequality as Persons in the Godhead.

    Galatians 1:1, is another interesting verse for the use of the preposition “dia”, in the genitive case. "Paul, an apostle not from men nor through man, but through (dia) Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead". The Greek for the latter part is, "alla dia Iêsou Christou kai theou patros". Notice that Jesus Christ is here mentioned first, and then the Father. Paul here uses the one Greek preposition, “dia”, to govern the whole clause. Some would have expected Paul to have written, “of (ek) God the Father, and through (dia) Jesus Christ. But this is not the case here. Paul is here saying, that his Apostleship has, not the calling of mere men, but by the Highest Authority, that of BOTH the Lord Jesus Christ, and God the Father. The use of the Greek preposition, “dia”, as given by Homer, “Mutual operation: with one another”, is perfectly suited here. The verse, then, has the meaning, “...jointly through Jesus Christ and God the Father...”.

    It is very clear, that the use of this Greek preposition, “dia”, is not restrictive in its use and meaning, and can and has been used for the purpose of “togetherness”, as its original meaning was. There is no reason, both theologically, and in accordance with Greek grammar, why this same use of the preposition, cannot be used in John 1:3, and Hebrews 1:2. The Bible is also very clear, that God the Father is not the sole Creator, nor the principal Creator, but is the joint Creator, together with the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

    John 1:1, 3, can read, “God...Created all things with Him (The Word)”

    Hebrew 1-2, “God...with Whom He also made the worlds”

    This is perfectly consistent with the Greek grammar, and the teachings of the Bible, more of which we shall see.
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hogwash on display. The biblical view is all three Persons of the Trinity played a part in the creation of the universe and everything in it. It was not created exclusively by the Father or the Son. Hebrews 2:10 supports this view, because the "by Him" refers to God the Son, not God the Father.

    In 1 Corinthians 1:9 it is the Father that "gives" individuals to Christ.

    In Galatians 1:1 Jesus appeared to Paul on the road, so his apostleship can through Jesus, and Jesus was sent by the Father, so the order still indicates God the Son was operating in subordination to the Father.
     
    #2 Van, Oct 29, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    it shows how ignorant you are! you know ZERO Greek!
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for the "taint so" which as usual is not a rebuttal, but a deflection.
     
  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    because it is CLEAR to me, that you really do NOT know any Greek grammar, as your own response shows, when you try to argue against the very usual Greek that I have shown! When you are ready to exchange like an adult, and not a child, I will respond. You problem is that you think that everyone that disagrees with your heresies, must be wrong, even though when it is clear that it is YOU who is very much WRONG, not only in your Greek, but also in your theology, especailly, Christology.
     
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  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Would you explain your position with a couple of sentences? No need to quote the Greek as I understand you believe your position is supported in the Greek.

    What are the two or three things you are saying?

    peace to you
     
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  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    When Calvinists lose on the facts, they attack the character and qualifications of their opponent, or in other words, they use the logical fallacy of ad hominems.

    The biblical view is all three Persons of the Trinity played a part in the creation of the universe and everything in it. It was not created exclusively by the Father or the Son. Hebrews 2:10 supports this view, because the "by Him" refers to God the Son, not God the Father.

    In 1 Corinthians 1:9 it is the Father that "gives" individuals to Christ.

    In Galatians 1:1 Jesus appeared to Paul on the road, so his apostleship can through Jesus, and Jesus was sent by the Father, so the order still indicates God the Son was operating in subordination to the Father.
     
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    very simply put. I believe that the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ, is the actual Creator of the universe. He is not, as some suppose, just a "secondary" cause through Whom the Father Created. This makes Jesus Christ, Co-Creator with God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit. Prior to His Incarnation, Jesus Christ was in no way "subordinate" to God the Father, this was only when Jesus walked this earth. He IS always Yahweh, as are The Father and Holy Spirit. One God: Three Persons, coequal, coeternal and coessential.
     
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    I am NOT a Calvinist! :Laugh
     
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  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Which of the 5 points of t he TULIP do you claim are bogus?

    I did just review some of your threads, and must apologize, you are indeed, not a Calvinist. It seems I am making more mistakes than necessary....
     
    #10 Van, Oct 29, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
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  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I do not think savedbygrace is a fellow Calvinist though!
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    This alternate view that you talked about, as Jesus being the agent of but not really Creator sounds like what JW say of Him, or when Muslims says Allah worked thru Him to his miracles and deeds!
     
  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    what Van and others believe!
     
  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    wow! I really cannot understand some people who just like to argue and disagree? your response here shows that you are very much out of your depth on Greek grammar! Please don't post any more foolish stuff here.
     
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  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another taint so deflection which employs ad hominem fallacies.
     
  16. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the clear statement.

    I agree with you about creation/sustaining universe.

    Interesting concept that subordination only occurred with incarnation. I will need to meditate on that. Does that subordination continue?

    Off hand, Steven had a vision of Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father. Is that a position of subordination?

    edit Thomas to Steven

    Peace to you
     
    #16 canadyjd, Oct 29, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Jesus Christ is Yahweh, that is, the Eternal, Unchanging, and Uncreated God. This is also true of the Father and the Holy Spirit. As such, in the Godhead, essentially, there can never be any "degree" of hierarchy, or subordination, as The Three are absolutely EQUAL. Post Incarnation Jesus is no longer "subordinate" to the Father, which is clear from Scriptures like John 17:5; Philippians 2:5-11; and Hebrews 2:7, 9, better if this can be read in the Greek, but I am happy to go into any details, if needed. Do you mean Steven in Acts chapter 7? Interesting, that in Psalm 110:1, we read of Adoni (Jesus) at the "right hand" of Yahweh (the Father). In verse 5, according to the better Hebrew manuscripts, "Yahweh (Jesus) at your Right Hand (the Father)". Where we have Two Persons as Yahweh.
     
    #17 SavedByGrace, Oct 29, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
  18. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    You mean unbiblical? I used to believe that all 5 were, until about 20 years ago, I changed on the P, as convinced from the Lord's own words in John's Gospel, when I read them in the Greek text (the English versions do not translate them!). The L is somehing that many "Reformed" also reject, as did Calvin, Baxter, Luther, Melanchthon, Bullinger, Latimer, Cranmer, Coverdale, etc, etc
     
  19. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    simple question for you, do you believe that the Bible Teaches that Jesus Christ is YHWH?
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes
     
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