Jesus's Wine Fermented or NOT?

[Allan]

Very good food for thought. I'm not looking for argument, either.

Here's one that goes along with one of your points and then veers back again:

[Mat 11:18] For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
[Mat 11:19] The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

The term eating and drinking is a term of familarity. John did not hob-knob with people but Jesus did.

 

[Nonsequitur]

Timothy 3:8 (New American Standard Bible)

8 Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued,or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,



If wine is really just grape juice, how much grape juice can a deacon have before he is disqualified from that office?

 

[Havensdad]

There is no question that the wine created miraculously by Jesus, was of the alcoholic variety. Notice:

Joh 2:10 and said to him, "Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now."

The phrase "have drunk freely" is one word in the Greek: Methuo. It means to get drunk.

The man is saying the kind of wine Jesus gave him to drink of, was the "good" kind, which one could get drunk from. This is further attested to by the use of the word "elasson", meaning younger, or weaker.

Also, this is reiterated by Jesus HIMSELF, who declares the "older" fermented wine to be the "better"...

Luk 5:39 And no one after drinking old wine desires new, for he says, 'The old is good.'"

 

[webdog]

Grapes either rot or ferment unless they are placed in cold storage.

The grapes (and grape juice) I buy do both in the refrigerator.

 

[webdog]

Thirdly, do some historical research on juice peservation in early first centuries and water purifications.

Do you have any linkd for these? Everything I try to find online leads to VERY fundamentalist sites. Fermentation, from what I can gather, was the only means of preservation when it came to juice. Even pasturized juice in the refrigerator will ferment due to airborne yeast, so I can't imagine with the technology to be had back then, they could do something we cannot do today.

They called Jesus these things NOT becasue of what He did but because of who He was around.

...then why didn't they call him a tax collector and a prostitute?

 

[Jerome]

"for not only does [Gennesaret] produce the most suprisingly diverse fruits but it maintains a continuous supply. Those royal fruits of the grape and the fig it furnishes for ten months on end, the rest ripening on the trees all year round; for apart from the temperate atmosphere it is watered by a spring with great fertilizing power, known locally as Capernaum." ---Josephus, The Jewish War

 

[webdog]

Didn't Josephus clam that there was fresh fruit stored underground that lasted for hundreds of years? At least that's what I remember from these discussions prior (SFIC, HBSMN, etc.)

Jerome, I didn't see anything from that quote one way or the other that support or refutes the OP. Can you elaborate?

 

[webdog]

I'm not wanting to get into the thread per-say but the above is the usage of poor logic. (not saying you are poor in your logic but on this it is simply poor logic).

They called Jesus these things NOT becasue of what He did but because of who He was around. He was also called a glutton, why - because He ate food. That makes no sense, especially not in the context of passages.

Personally, I am against drinking. My whole point is based not off the typical abstinance scrptures (though they can be used - but not to the degree some take them) but primarily my abstinance stand on Pauls point of the weaker brother. He didn't state that you have the liberty to do what you like even when a brother finds it to be sinful. His entire point is that your liberty is NOT for you but your brothers sake. You are at liberty to deny yourself for the sake of your brother. Paul stated whether it be meat or drink if it cause one to stumble or offend he will NEVER partake. Not that he will did it at home or when he is out of their sight - never.

I just thought of something. It wasn't the fact He was called these things due to the company He kept. Jesus said that John the Baptist neither ate nor drink and you said he had a demon...I (on the other hand) eat and drink and you call me a glutton and drunkard. Now, we know John the Baptist ate food, and that is not the reason they called him crazy. Neither did it have anything to do with the company he was with. He had a very limited diet, and took the vow to never drink. On the other hand, Jesus tells us in so many words He took no such vow, and could eat whatever he pleased. The Pharisees false accusation had to do with the fact they knew John the Baptist, and his prophet status, and to see Jesus do the very thing JTB didn't, gave them ammo (or so they thought) to use against Him. I think it's very clear from Scripture Jesus made the very best wine (Isaiah 25:6 defines this), and being jewish, did in fact drink wine, as all jews have done for thousands of years.

 

[Gwyneth]

I think it's very clear from Scripture Jesus made the very best wine (Isaiah 25:6 defines this), and being jewish, did in fact drink wine, as all jews have done for thousands of years.

you are correct Webdog

 

[Jim1999]

Gwyneth, please refrain from telling Webdog that he is right. We have to live with him day after day.:laugh:

Cheers, and by the way, whether the wine is the real wine or Welch's grape juice is irrelevant. The miracle is in the making of the wine on the spot.

Jim

 

[webdog]

A friend was born and bred in the country and as their forebears always did , they made a few gallons of elderberry wine every year, this is good medicine for chest complaints. However, one year someone asked her to make him some wine from grapes which he had grown in his greenhouse. The grapes were covered with a greyish bloom (yeast) and when put in the juicer to remove the pips and skins the natural sugar contained in the grapes automatically and instantly began to ferment on contact...for , as it's know yeast +sugar = alcohol... the container with the `waste` pips and skins was actually bubbling with activity as she was operating the juicer.

For those who think fermentation can be avoided, here's a test for you. Get some fresh ripe grapes off a vine, extract the juice, and let us know how you can stop the immediate, natural action of fermentation (without freezing the juice)

 

[Gwyneth]

Cheers, and by the way, whether the wine is the real wine or Welch's grape juice is irrelevant. The miracle is in the making of the wine on the spot.

Jim

that`s right too Jim, my friend :wavey:

 

[Jerome]

Can you elaborate?

It addresses the "nothing but rotgut would have been available at Passover" kind of speculations.

"Other biological processes [besides refrigeration] affecting preservation of juices and the effect of temperature and other factors upon them were well understood by the people of antiquity" ---Socrates A. Kaloyereas, "On the History of Food Preservation," Scientific Monthly, Vol. 71, No. 6 (Dec., 1950), p. 423.

 

[Jerome]

"Hermetic Sealing as a Technique of Food Preservation among the Indians of the American Southwest"
Robert C. Euler and Volney H. Jones
Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society, Vol. 100, No. 1 (Feb. 24, 1956), pp. 87-99

 

[Gwyneth]

"Other biological processes [besides refrigeration] affecting preservation of juices and the effect of temperature and other factors upon them were well understood by the people of antiquity"

Can you elaborate, please?
e.g. Other biological processes = ?????

 

[Tom Butler]

This just occurred to me today.

On the day of Pentecost the Spirit-baptized believers ran outside and began speaking to all those Jewish foreigners in their own language.

What was the reaction of some of those who saw it? "Why, those folks must be drunk with new wine."

And it's interesting what Peter said to that: Acts 2:15 (paraphrasing), "fellas, they're not drunk. It's much too early, it's only 9 o'clock in the morning." He went on to say that the observers were watching prophecy being fulfilled before they eyes (Joel 2:28)

I wonder why Peter didn't just say, "hey, they're not drunk. We're followers of Christ, we don't drink." What he said instead that it was too early in the day to have drunk enough to get drunk.

Anybody want to chew on this and shed some light on it?

 

[Allan]

Do you have any linkd for these? Everything I try to find online leads to VERY fundamentalist sites. Fermentation, from what I can gather, was the only means of preservation when it came to juice. Even pasturized juice in the refrigerator will ferment due to airborne yeast, so I can't imagine with the technology to be had back then, they could do something we cannot do today.
...then why didn't they call him a tax collector and a prostitute?

I do somewhere, I'll try to get at them for you. I 'thought' I posted at least one article before in a discussion like this but maybe not.

Regarding the last sentence. Think about what you just said and look again at the passage in question. These titles of sinners are synonomous with sin itself. The phrase 'came eating and drinking' however was commonly used to discribe familarity. John rubbed elbows with no one but preached like a prophet against sin and of judgment, as well as for them to repent. Jesus on the other hand was amoungst the sinners, still preaching, but in a different manner than John the Baptist. John was declared to have a demon because their was no other accusation that could be put against him, Jesus could not be said to have a devil because He did things only a man of God annointed by God Himself could do BUT.. He was amounst the sinners so their only accusation was one against his familarity with them. Why? Because according to them only a sinner would be amounst sinners. Thus He 'might' have been a man of God but now he has fallen into sin, making him less than a prophet and most definately NOT the messiah.

 

[Allan]

This just occurred to me today.

On the day of Pentecost the Spirit-baptized believers ran outside and began speaking to all those Jewish foreigners in their own language.

What was the reaction of some of those who saw it? "Why, those folks must be drunk with new wine."

And it's interesting what Peter said to that: Acts 2:15 (paraphrasing), "fellas, they're not drunk. It's much too early, it's only 9 o'clock in the morning." He went on to say that the observers were watching prophecy being fulfilled before they eyes (Joel 2:28)

I wonder why Peter didn't just say, "hey, they're not drunk. We're followers of Christ, we don't drink." What he said instead that it was too early in the day to have drunk enough to get drunk.

Anybody want to chew on this and shed some light on it?

Tom, the word in Acts 2:15 isn't "oinos" a generic term for both fermented and unfermented wine but this word for wine here is "gleukos". Thus it is specific and refers to a newly made or sweet wine.

Their accusation about them being drunk was because they were claiming the dead man some called the Christ had risen.

So for Peter to get up and state that they were 'follers of Christ they don't drink' would given rise to even more laughter and speculation. However Peter did state that they were not drunk and then proceeded to exound what they talking about.

 

[jcjordan]

A good dark beer is much better than wine. It is a sin to drink light beer.

 

[gb93433]

Tom, the word in Acts 2:15 isn't "oinos" a generic term for both fermented and unfermented wine but this word for wine here is "gleukos". Thus it is specific and refers to a newly made or sweet wine.

Wine will not rot. Grape juice will either rot or ferment depending on the conditions.

A.T. Robertson writes,
"With new wine (gleukous). Sweet wine, but intoxicating. Sweet wine kept a year was very intoxicating. Genitive case here after memestômenoi eisin (periphrastic perfect passive indicative), old verb mestoô, only here in the N.T. Tanked up with new wine, state of fulness."