The difference is that you, sir, are influenced by the works of Calvin and his disciples. I am not, and will not be. Nor have I been influenced by Arminius, having never read his writings either.
I am influenced by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, and Jude, as well as their predecessors, the Authors of the Old Testament books. But it is by the teachings of those I named, the Elect of God, that I, who was "of the world", have come to faith in Jesus the Christ resulting in my election to Salvation in Christ.
John 10:15 and the Atonement
Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Southern, Nov 4, 2004.
Page 17 of 18
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Gene M. Bridges,
You said,
Your passage about ‘the great multitude which no man could number’ comes out of Revelation chapter 7:9 which will be all of the martyred saints who die at the authority of the future coming antichrist after the church is taken into Heaven.
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Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Then why not show this teaching in Scripture? It would be so simple, but you refuse. Why?Click to expand...[John 17:20] I pray not only for these (the apostles) but also for those who through their (the apostles') teaching will come to believe in me.Click to expand...
You call Jesus savior? YOU'd better believe his words!Click to expand... -
Wes Outwest,
Because some of the brethren have laid down their alleged truth, should mean that you should dovetail with their concepts. I do not think anyone on the board is a Protestant Pope except perhaps one Pope and a couple of Archbishops.
God through the pen of the Apostle John makes it clear that the true Light, being Jesus, has come into the world so that all human, sinners, might believe. [John 1:7] The new birth, being born again can only come from our loving and gracious God, as noted in John chapter three. Everything pivots on 3:16 & 18 as to who will be one day in the Presence of the Lord. There is no ‘secret’ election as thought by Dr. A.A. Hodge in his book, “Outlines of Theology” Thomas Nelson & Sons, Paternoster Row; Edinburgh & New York, p. 97 under his subtitle, “Augustinianism.”
God speaking through His agent, John says, ‘. . . that all men through Him might believe.’ Jesus knows that all will not believe but this does not deny the fact that indeed He did die and taste physical death [Hebrews 2:9] for every person, securing His atonement on their behalf. Jesus precious atonement is sufficient for all but only efficient in those who believe and trust in Him as personal Savior
Wes, you are a pastor too aren't you? Sorry if I am confused; I always want to avoid my 'extreme confusion.' -
IT is interesting Ray, to see you post here. You were the one who I originally asked to post Scriptural evidence that belief leads to election. You posted John 3:16 and when I pointed out that John 3:16 did not address election, you quit. Why? If you believe that belief leads to election, surely the Bible teaches that somewhere and surely you can show us that. Maybe between you and Wes you can finally come up with a place in the Bible to support your doctrine. So far, both of you individually have failed.
Jesus precious atonement is sufficient for all but only efficient in those who believe and trust in Him as personal SaviorClick to expand... -
My former quote was, 'Jesus precious atonement is sufficient for all but only efficient in those who believe and trust in Him as personal Savior. [/quote]
I John 2:2 indicates that nothing is lost because Jesus died for all sinners. It is to their eternal loss of salvation to avoid or reject Christ's all encompassing plan for His lost created human beings.
Election pivots on trusting in Christ and not on some nebulous 'secret' and autocratic election by Almighty God.
Biblical theology posts the saved as those who believe in Christ savingly; or as the Arminian second point of theology states, Election By Faith. :D -
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
IT is interesting Ray, to see you post here. You were the one who I originally asked to post Scriptural evidence that belief leads to election. You posted John 3:16 and when I pointed out that John 3:16 did not address election, you quit. Why? If you believe that belief leads to election, surely the Bible teaches that somewhere and surely you can show us that. Maybe between you and Wes you can finally come up with a place in the Bible to support your doctrine. So far, both of you individually have failed.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Jesus precious atonement is sufficient for all but only efficient in those who believe and trust in Him as personal SaviorClick to expand...
NO MAN DIES IN SIN,
NO MAN DIES FOR SIN,
NO MAN IS CHARGED WITH SIN!
There is only ONE reason man dies, and that is because he lacks FAITH in God!
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As for Election?
DICTIONARY ENTRIES
elect
v. : elected, electing, elects
v.tr. :To select by vote for an office or for membership.
To pick out; select:elect an art course.
To decide, especially by preference:elected to take the summer off.
To select by divine will for salvation.Used of God.
v.intr.: To make a choice or selection.
adj.: Chosen deliberately; singled out.
Elected but not yet installed. Often used in combination: the governor-elect.
Chosen for marriage.Often used in combination: the bride-elect.
Selected by divine will for salvation.
n. : One that is chosen or selected.
One selected by divine will for salvation.(used with apl.verb) An "exclusive" group of people. Used with "the":eek:ne of the elect who have power inside the government.
THESAURUS ENTRIES:
election, noun
Definition: choosing
Synonyms: acclamation, advance poll, alternative, appointment, ballot, balloting, by-election, choice, decision, determination, franchise, judgment, option, poll, polls, preference, primary, referendum, selection, ticket, vote, vote-casting, voting
selection, noun
Definitiion: preference
Synonyms: alternative, choice, choosing, collection, culling, draft, druthers, election, excerpt, option, pick, picking
appointment, noun
Definition: responsibility
Synonyms: allotment, approval, assigning, authorization, certification, choice, choosing, commissioning, delegation, deputation, designation, election, empowering, installation, naming, nomination, ordination, promotion, selection
choice, noun
Definition: selection
Synonyms: alternative, appraisal, bag, choosing, cull, decision, determination, discretion, discrimination, distinction, druthers, election, evaluation, extract, favorite, finding, free will, judgment, opportunity, option, pick, preference, rating, say, substitute, variety, verdict, volition, vote, weakness
nomination, noun
Definition: appointment
Synonyms: choice, designation, election, naming, proposal, recommendation, selection, suggestion
option, noun
Definition: alternative
Synonyms: advantage, benefit, choice, claim, dibs, dilemma, discretion, druthers, election, flipside, franchise, free will, grant, license, opportunity, pickup, preference, prerogative, privilege, right, security, selection, title
preference, noun
Definition: choice
Synonyms: alternative, bag, choice, desire, druthers, election, favorite, flash, groove, inclination, option, partiality, pick, predilection, prepossession, propensity, say, say so, selection, top, weakness
volition, noun
Definition: free will
Synonyms: accord, choice, choosing, conation, desire, determination, discretion, election, option, preference, purpose, resolution, selection, will, willingness, wish.
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The way I see it, Unless there is a specific definion of "Elect" referenced in a post, WE ARE ALL ELECTED to SALVATION!
Now, before you all Jump all over that, NO, that is not universalism. You see, election has such a broad, all inclusive meaning, that every human is covered one way or another by it...in scripture.
Elect could mean God's Choice, or Man's choice. It could be an expression of God's will or man's will.
It could be proactive or reactive.
It could be predetermined or immediate
It could be planned or unplanned
It could be God's plan for man, or Man's response to God!
Calvinism places strict limits on election, where scripture does not seem to.
So, Because I choose, that is, "elect to believe" as Jesus told us to, God's Word, and Have faith in God, I am just as saved as any Calvinist, who thinks that God elected them from the foundation of the world! There is no difference in us! And the doctrine of election simply goes out the window! No doctrine is needed where the definition is so broad and all inclusive in scope. -
Election pivots on trusting in ChristClick to expand...
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NO MAN DIES IN SIN,Click to expand...
NO MAN DIES FOR SIN,Click to expand...
NO MAN IS CHARGED WITH SIN!Click to expand...
There is only ONE reason man dies, and that is because he lacks FAITH in God!Click to expand...
Your definition of election is unbiblical. It doesn't even begin to address the scriptural teaching. Of course, you know this since you have seen it before. Quoting long English dictionary definitions doesn't help when you are fundamentally wrong on the bibical teaching. -
I do not deny the Atonement or its purpose.
Rev 21:8 speaks of those lacking faith in God!
Romans 5:12 speaks of those lacking faith in God!
John 8:24 even states "unless you believe in me..." believing means having FAITH.
The atonement removed the penalty for sin, so no one dies because of sin! They die because of lack of faith!
Though I do not agree, Not having faith may be a sin, but you don't die for sin you die because you have not faith! You don't die for what you do, you die because you LACK FAITH!
My definition of "Elect"? Which one? -
John 8:24 even states "unless you believe in me..." believing means having FAITHClick to expand...
Romans 5:12 speaks of those lacking faith in God!Click to expand...
Faith is not even mentioned Romans 5:12 is talking about the fall of man, e.g. Adam's fall.
Rev 21:8 speaks of those lacking faith in God!Click to expand...
Lack of faith is "apeitheia" in Greek. "Disobedience" is the same Greek word. All disobedience is sin. God pours out His wrath on all disobedience, e.g. apeitheia. If God pours out on all apeitheia, and the single word in Greek translates as both words in English, then how is unbelief not a sin, since God only pours out His wrath on all disobedience and all sin is disobedience?
Your position is unbiblical and indefensible. -
This form of communication is very limited and is not conducive to full explanation or you would know that my "position" is not as limited as you all want to describe it.
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Then why can you not support it with Scripture?
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chapter 7:9 which will be all of the martyred saints who die at the authority of the future coming antichrist after the church is taken into Heaven.Click to expand...
He is saying that out of the mega millions of sinners who have heard the saving Gospel only the ‘few’ will respond to the clear message.Click to expand...
This is taken from a Calvinist in the 1800’s as to having no will or freedom of choice in matters of salvation and other areas also.Click to expand...
You are wrong here because I gave you a direct quote from Dr. Hodge, a teacher of Calvinism.Click to expand...
I believe that Dr. Hodge begins the same essay by saying exactly the opposite, because he begins it with this words: "I do not assert, nor is it necessary that I should, what are the essential elements of free agency. Men may differ about that. But we know we have a conscience, and that a person is not a mere machine — for that a machine cannot have an obligation, cannot be subject to command, is certainly proved; but that a person is subject to command, is subject to obligations of conscience, is a matter of universal consciousness." The entire article explains that position. Perhaps if you had read the entire essay and his other works you would understand that Charles and A.A. Hodge believed precisely the opposite from what you said and A.A. Hodge in particular wrote to show that men are NOT robots or puppets with destroyed wills as you say they taught.
They have the cognitive power to either reject or to receive Christ as Savior.Click to expand...
You have not defined what you mean.Click to expand...
Personally, I am a four point Arminian and a one point Calvinist, in that I believe that a true Christian will not be lost but may be 'ashamed' in the Presence of the Lord.Click to expand... -
Originally posted by GeneMBridges:
Then why can you not support it with Scripture?Click to expand... -
No, Wes, you were chastised for posting too much Scripture and not interacting with it. In fact, both Larry and I have repeatedly asked you to support your answers with Scripture beyond posting verses and not interacting to explain why they support your view. Posting Scripture does not indicate you understand Scripture. Telling people what Scripture does NOT mean, does not equate to telling them what you think it DOES mean. Additionally, you were the one that got upset because we were asking you to support Scripture, going so far as to tell us that you do not believe Scripture contains all truth on these issues. You openly expressed disdain for the concept of Sola Scriptura. Moreover, Pastor Larry specifically did not chastise you for posting Scripture. He chastised you for posting long exerpts from English language dictionaries. I personally have been round with you over unbelief being a sin in at least two threads, I think three, now four with this one, and not one time have you ever posted an exegetical response.
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Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Rev 21:8 speaks of those lacking faith in God!
Romans 5:12 speaks of those lacking faith in God!
John 8:24 even states "unless you believe in me..." believing means having FAITH.
The atonement removed the penalty for sin, so no one dies because of sin! They die because of lack of faith!Click to expand...
The passages clearly state that unbelief is one of the sins that send people to hell. It is not the only sin, according to Rev 21:8. You simply didn't read hte passage and think about it.
Not having faith may be a sin, but you don't die for sin you die because you have not faith! You don't die for what you do, you die because you LACK FAITH!Click to expand...
Clearly, failure to believe is a sin, and people die for failure to believe, by your own admission. Therefore, contrary to one of your claims, and consistent with another of your claims, people die because of sin.
However, Scripture makes clear in Rev 21:8 that people go to hell for things other than unbelief. Unbelief is simply one of hte things listed there.
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