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John 12:32 in context

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by MB, Mar 11, 2019.

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  1. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    For David taylor
    Joh 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
    Joh 12:29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
    Joh 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
    Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
    Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
    Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
    Joh 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?
    Joh 12:35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
    Joh 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

    I don't see how anyone can interpret this verse wrong
     
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    How did he get it wrong?
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    If advocates like a man-made doctrine that conflicts with scripture, they simply rewrite scripture such that it conforms with the doctrine. When Jesus is beheld on the cross, He draws all [kinds of] men. The natural man does not understand [all] the things of the Spirit. There are none who seek after God [at any time.] Jesus became the propitiation not only for us, but also for the whole world [of chosen elect.]

    But am I any better? He draws all [who hear and understand the gospel] people. The natural man does not understand [the spiritual meat] things of the Spirit. There are none who seek after God [when they are sinning.] Jesus became the propitiation not only for us, but also for the whole world [ of fallen mankind.] :)
     
  4. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    David taylor didn't like the idea that it wasn't in context the first time i posted Jn 12:32. So I placed it in context. Who knows he may not have a Bible. Yet he disagrees with it. He told me that it is the Father that draws. I told him that Jesus in reality is the Father they are in fact the same God including the Holy Spirit..
    MB
     
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Ah, that sounds like modalism. Be careful there. The Son is not the Father, though He is called the eternal Father and speaks and acts on the Father's behalf (Isaiah 9:6: John 14:9: Genesis 1:26).
     
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  6. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how you think that is the full context... There are Greeks in this passage that need to see Jesus. This would have been unthinkable to a Jew in that day, Gentiles coming to see a teacher. This is why Jesus says all men. He is speaking of both Jew and Gentile. All kinds of people. The FULLER context is posted below which you overlooked.



    John 12:20–36 (ESV)

    20Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks.

    21So these came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and asked him, “Sir, we wish to see Jesus.”

    22Philip went and told Andrew; Andrew and Philip went and told Jesus.

    23And Jesus answered them, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.

    24Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

    25Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

    26If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.

    27“Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But for this purpose I have come to this hour.

    28Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.”

    29The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.”

    30Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine.

    31Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.

    32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

    33He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

    34So the crowd answered him, “We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?”

    35So Jesus said to them, “The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going.

    36While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them.
     
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  7. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I agree with @davidtaylorjr that in the context of the Greeks coming, the drawing is of Jews, Greeks, Barbarians, Scythians etc. (Colossians 3:11).

    But also, the use of the verb helko for draw is significant. It is used regularly to mean 'drag' (John 21:6; Acts 16:19; 21:30; James 2:6). There is not the slightest suggestion that this dragging might have been resisted. It is also found in the Septuagint in Song of Songs 1:4; Jeremiah 31:3, where the drawing, though more tender, is not resisted.

    Also, it has to be said that not all men are drawn to Christ in any way at all, even for a short time. To suggest that every single man is drawn to Christ in any way is not in accordance with the facts. It must therefore mean the irresistible drawing of men of 'all nations,tribes, peoples and tongues' (Revelation 7:9).
     
    #7 Martin Marprelate, Mar 11, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
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  8. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Amazing how scripture can be so elusive to those of different points of view.

    Personally i don't see the problem - no exclusivity to me even after looking at the raw Greek.
    I see neither the idea or words suggesting all "kinds" of men but simply ALL men of any spiritual status.

    It matters not to Jesus even if we are dead or alive (2 kinds of people).

    John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    Its the response, some will hear (respond to His "voice"), some will come (respond to His "drawing").
    Yes even the dead.
     
  9. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Nice try david but it just doesn't work. I didn't overlook anything that is nonsense. You are just avoiding the truth of scripture
    The Greek words it thijs way with out the added words by the translator
    Jn 12 32 And if I be lifted up from the earth, all I will Draw.
    Calvinist are going to have to do better than that. You just lost the argument.
    MB
     
  10. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    This is how it reads in Greek below;
    Jn 12 32 And if I be lifted up from the earth, all I will Draw.

    "Must therefore mean" doesn't cut it. You are assuming what you wrote here, you have no scriptural backing for it
    The Greek text does not say all peoples, tribes nations, and tongues. Scripture does not say "irresistible drawing" anywhere. If I'm wrong show scripture to prove it to be true.
    MB
     
  11. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    I love how you did not even bother to address my post.
     
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  12. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Actually the passage seems to me to be calvin/arminius neutral because nothing else is said about "all' men just that they are drawn to Christ.

    The purpose of their drawing and final disposition is not addressed. That is up to the reader to try and determine. Contrariwise in the John 5:25 passage only those dead which hear Him live.

    John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
     
    #12 HankD, Mar 11, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
  13. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    Wrong in what way?

    Here, let me give it a try:

    " Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, [saying], I have both glorified [it], and will glorify [it] again.
    29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard [it], said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
    30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
    31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
    32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
    33 This he said, signifying what death he should die."
    ( John 12:28-32 )

    The very first thing i see here is the word, "men", and it is in italics.
    It is not part of the text of the AV, but as par for the course, most of the modern translations don't make the distinction.

    Taking the italicized word "men" out, we see this:


    "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [] unto me."

    "All" who?


    In the next verse, we find the significance of why He said it...it signified what death He should die.
    When He is "lifted up" ( crucified, hung on a tree for all to see ), He will draw all to Him.
    The people that are watching included both Jews and Gentiles.
    We see this by carefully reading all of the Gospel accounts, and paying attention to who was represented in the crowd.

    Some of His disciples, His mother, Pharisees and other Jews...rich ( Joseph of Arimathea ), poor and Roman soldiers ( Gentiles ).

    There's your "all".
    All kinds of men.


    Secondly, it is of note that when Jesus was lifted up, He stated that He would "draw" all to Himself.

    Since in order to come to Christ in belief ( John 6:44 ), it is the FATHER who must do the drawing, then this verse does not mean that Christ draws all men to Himself spiritually.
    Why?

    " No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." ( John 6:44-45 ).

    Because all that the Father has drawn will come to Christ, and they shall be raised up at the last day.

    Every word counts and is significant.
     
    #13 Dave Gilbert, Mar 11, 2019
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  14. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Still, the John 12 passage would work in a witnessing situation by asking a person "are you aware of Christ drawing power? Are you drawn to Him?"
     
  15. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    And to me, he is correct.

    If Jesus meant that when He was lifted up ( crucified ), that He would draw all to Him spiritually, then in John 6:44 He is lying by saying that it is the Father who draws, and all that are drawn come to Him and are raised up.

    Jesus is not a liar.
    He cannot be the one doing the drawing that results in a person coming to Him in belief, and contradicting what he said 6 chapters back about His Father being the one doing the drawing.

    No matter what context you put this in, it signifies what death He should die, and has nothing to do with salvation.



    Jesus is not the Father and is not the Holy Spirit.
    They are three in one.
    Three separate entities all in agreement ( 1 John 5:7 ).

    All are God, and all are "triune".
    They each have separate functions in the "trinity".

    Jesus is the Word made flesh ( John 1:1-3 ), and the Son of God.
    God the Father dictates His will and word to the Son ( John 7:16, John 8:26, John 12:49, John 14:10 ), who carries it out.
    The Holy Spirit is the one who, unseen, does the bidding of both, as I understand it.
    He travels everywhere and is everywhere.
     
    #15 Dave Gilbert, Mar 11, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
  16. unprofitable

    unprofitable Member

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    John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of ALL WHICH HE HATH GIVEN ME I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
     
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  17. unprofitable

    unprofitable Member

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    John 6:65 And he said therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given to him of my Father.
     
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  18. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    Sure he does...from other Scriptures.
    God's word is not understood in bits and pieces like "verses"...it is a continuous book of letters written like a one-sided conversation; Some in narrative, some in direct letters to groups of believers.

    The reason we understand the "all" to mean "all kinds of men" is because there are too many contradictions if many of the places that state "all men" actually means, "each and every man woman and child who ever lived".

    We find the vital parts of this in places like the prophets and especially Revelation 5:9 and Revelation 7:9.

    The same with the word, "world".

    If God so loved the world, means that God loves every man, woman and child equally, then you better tell the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah that God loved them while raining fire and brimstone down on them.:Cautious
    While you're at it, you may wish to tell the millions who drowned in the Flood that God loved them, all the while killing them and preserving Noah and his family on the ark.:Frown


    Not in this passage it doesn't, no.
    That understanding is brought in from other passages, where it fits.
    Some of us who understand it that way inherently know why it fits.

    if you're looking for an explanation in the immediate context, there are pieces from other parts of God's word that are important and have to be considered.

    I agree.
    Nowhere does that phrase exist in God's word.
    It is a concept that is developed by reading it and seeing the significance that all that are drawn will be raised up ( John 6:44 ), therefore, it is "irresistible", because it cannot fail to result in the raising up of ALL that are drawn.

    A similar concept that is understood from Scripture is the word, "trinity", even though the word itself is never found in the Bible.

    That would take a while, and a fair amount of space.
    Are you up for it?

    Which subject do you want to deal with..."all men", or "world"?
    Which verse that contains either one would you like to look at?
     
    #18 Dave Gilbert, Mar 11, 2019
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  19. unprofitable

    unprofitable Member

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    In Romans 9:19, Paul says, "...who hath resisted His will." John 6:39 gives the Father's will. John 6:65 shows the pre-determined counsel of the Father. The Son came to do the will of the Father. Those given to the Son cannot resist the will of the Father. Romans 12:5, Gal, 3:28, and Col 3:11 show that the meaning is ALL in Christ and that is in His body.
     
  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    The reason the C vs A dispute continues on is because the determinant choice of the "elect" is rarely dealt with.

    Followers of C say that the elect "are/were" chosen by unconditional decree with no motivating reason on God's part.

    Followers of A say that the elect "are/were" chosen by God's foreknowledge - i.e. He foresaw who would believe were they given the chance and elected them.

    Both claim love as ingredient in the choice.

    Scripture makes the following statement:

    Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    We are not privy to that counsel apart from being in a helpless and hopeless estate.
     
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