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John 12:32 in context

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by MB, Mar 11, 2019.

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  1. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    If this is true and it isn't then how is it that the Jews rejected Christ as there Messiah?
    MB
     
  2. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
    Calvin said they can't hear but Paul says they can. I believe Paul.
    MB
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Gee MB, are you saying men of flesh can hear, understand and respond to the milk of the gospel? 1 Cor. 3:1
     
  4. calledbyHisgrace

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    And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (Acts 13:48)
     
  5. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    The Greek says it this way.
    Acts 13:48 Greek interlinear
    Hearing and the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord and believed as many as were appointed to life eternal..
    There is no appointment first but belief comes first.
    MB
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The Greek word translated "ordained" in post #44 and appointed in post #45 refers to an agreement by mutual consent. As many as took Paul's direction to eternal life believed.

    All people who hear and understand the gospel picturing Christ high and lifted up on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins will be attracted to Christ. John 12:32
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    There is a larger context. In John 11:46-53, ". . . some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done. Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,. Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. . . ."

    Which is the underling reason for what we find in John 12:32-33, ". . . And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die. . . ."
     
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  8. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    I didn't reject what it says. I agree with what it says. But there is CONTEXT to what it says. The verse doesn't stand on its own in isolation of the rest of the passage. You keep ignoring that fact.

    I haven't changed anything. I merely showed you the full context not one verse out of context.

    What exactly did I add to the verse? I haven't added anything.

    I never said you misquoted verse 32. I said you ignored the rest of the passage and only looked at verse 32. That is the same mindset that says Jesus said we are not to judge in Matthew 7:1. It only says that if you don't read the rest of the passage.
     
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  9. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    We agree. But only the elect will hear and understand his voice and the call to them.
     
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  10. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    " No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:44 )

    With respect, Scripture should be enough.;)

    Not in the same sense that the Father does in John 6:44, no I don't.

    To you, yes.
    I expect you to reject "Calvinism" and the understanding of the Scriptures that I have, simply because I don't think you can see it.
    Will you ever see it?
    I hope so.:)

    Excellent.
    I would hope that you would do no less, sir.
    To rely on anything else is to rely on something outside the relationship between you, Him and His precious word.

    But, to put it bluntly, if you can stand by what Scripture actually says, how about standing by this?

    " And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 )

    To me, someone who makes the claim to believe the actual words, shouldn't have any trouble believing them exactly as written.

    Do you believe what this says?
     
    #50 Dave Gilbert, Mar 12, 2019
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  11. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    Hank,
    I comprehend John 3:16 just fine.
    My problem is with preachers who yank it like a blanket over all of mankind, when Scripture says different:

    " The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity." ( Psalms 5:5 )
    "The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth." ( Psalms 11:5 )

    God doesn't just hate the sin, He hates the sinner.
    I believe that I've spoken of this in past threads.

    He does not love all men.

    If He did, He would have sent preachers to Sodom and Gomorrah warning the people of its destruction...He didn't.
    If God loved everyone, He would not have killed every last person in the flood except Noah's family, without having someone preach repentance to them like He did Jonah in Nineveh...There is no record of Noah preaching repentance and salvation before at God's coming judgment, he only preached righteousness.
    If He loved everyone, He would not have commanded Joshua and the children of Israel to kill every last man woman and child in the cities they conquered, without sending in prophets and missionaries to preach repentance to them.
    If He loved everyone, He would not have visited the plagues that He did upon Egypt, without sending Moses or someone else to preach repentance to Pharoah and his people...instead, He said this:

    " And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go." ( Exodus 4:21 )

    The Lord God hardened Pharoah's heart, for the specific purpose that Pharoah would not let the children of Israel go.
    Would God have hardened Pharoah's heart against Him, if He loved Pharoah?

    The answer is in Romans 9:14-18.
     
    #51 Dave Gilbert, Mar 12, 2019
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  12. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    No, it doesn't.
    The Greek word is, " tetagmenoi ", and it means, "having been set into".
    In the English, it means, "appointed", "commissioned", "set forth", "determined", "assigned".
    As many as were set into life, believed.

    I think I read David Cloud saying something like that ( he used the term, "pre-disposed", and I thought, "pre-disposed by whom"? ) in one of his articles, and Dr. Max Younce also stating it somewhere that way.
    Dr. Younce even went so far as to suggest that the passage was mis-translated and should have said, "as many as believed were ordained to eternal life."
    Interesting bit of wresting Scripture, I thought.:rolleyes:

    In fact, I was amazed that he went that far and no one seemed to catch him.:eek:

    They can't and they don't.

    " For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 )

    The lost ( carnal, natural men ) think that the preaching of the cross is foolishness.
    Those that are saved believe it to be the power of God.

    In addition,
    Believers progress from carnal to spiritual in their behaviour because of the presence of the Holy spirit within them ( Romans 8:11, Galatians 5:22-23 ).
    1 Corinthians 3:1 is written to those who have already believed, which is why Paul is addressing them as brethren and babes in Christ.

    Unbelievers ( who are never referred to as "brethren" anywhere in the Bible ) never progress past carnal in their behaviour, and their minds are always at enmity with God ( Romans 8:5-8 ).



    Read Romans, 1 Corinthians and 2 Corinthians thoroughly, and hopefully you should see these things.:)
     
    #52 Dave Gilbert, Mar 12, 2019
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  13. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    Back to John 12:32.

    To me, this passage always ends up on the list of "gotcha" verses that those who are unable to see what Scripture states regarding divine election always fall back on to explain how Christ can draw all men spiritually, when it directly contradicts what He said in John 6:44.

    The real question to me is, if everyone that God the Father draws in John 6:44 comes to Christ and is raised up at the last day, how is it that Christ can draw all men, and them not all come to Him?

    Second question:
    Those of you that believe that Christ draws all men spiritually by the power of the Holy Ghost...answer me this:

    Why do some come to Christ and some don't?
    Is the power of the God's Spirit not enough?
    Please answer with Scripture alone.



    God's word actually states why they do not, and the reasons are several-fold.
     
    #53 Dave Gilbert, Mar 12, 2019
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  14. unprofitable

    unprofitable Member

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    The argument that the Father looked into the future and foresaw who would believe and gave them the chance and elected them is without merit and is a contradiction in itself. The statement that the Father looked into the future would mean that the future had already been set and decided. If the Father had to look into the future, it would mean He did not know what the future would be until he looked. It would then be necessary that there be a power other that the Father that established the future. This is not true and the Father is not a fortune teller.

    Prophesy is only possible if the future has already been determined. This is evident in Isa. 46:10 which says, "Declaring the end FROM THE BEGINNING , and from ancient times the things that are NOT YET done, saying MY counsel SHALL stand, and I WILL do all my pleasure." The future then is establish by the Father from the beginning. This is why Isaiah can say in Isaiah 1:9, "Except the Lord of hosts HAD left us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah."

    Luke 14:28 says, "For which of you intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it. This foreknowledge was necessary so that Christ could make an oath in saying in Mt 16:18, " Upon this rock I WILL build my church and the gates of hell SHALL NOT prevail against it." He knew the will/counsel of the Father. The cost had already been counted. He would bring forth the eternal covenant and eternal priesthood by which we are restored to fellowship with the Godhead. He told his apostles, "You HAVE NOT CHOSEN me, but I HAVE CHOSEN you." The temple had been measured. The Father has determined to the member/living stone the exact number needed to raise up a spiritual house/temple able to offer spiritual sacrifice unto the Lord. (I Pet 2:5). This leaves out all possibility that man is in anyway the author/architect/finisher of his own faith/salvation.
     
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  15. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Again I believe you are wrong. For God hate does not preclude love which is the very essence of the character of God.

    1 John 4:8... God is love.

    I do not hate anyone do you?

    1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Dave, I did not see where you addressed 1 Corinthians 3:1. Please note that it agrees with me over and against your view.

    Next do a study of the word that means agreement by mutual consent. See how it is used in scripture. If you are unable to find the other verses, ask me and I will provide them because I have done the study.
     
  17. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    God loved Jacob and hated Esau.
    I have no trouble believing the face-value meaning of the words.
    I also see no problem with believing that everyone whom God hates He casts into Hell, and everyone He loves He saves and keeps for Himself.

    " Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." ( Revelation 22:14-15 )


    God casts out all who love and make lies...
    He says that He hates these things, and the people who do them:

    " These six [things] doth the Lord hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him:
    17 a proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
    18 an heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
    19 a false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."
    ( Proverbs 6:16-19 )

    This is why He cannot abide them in His presence, Hank.
    He cannot trust them unless He has given them a new heart.
    What are men outside of being born again?

    " being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30 backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31 without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    " ( Romans 1:29-31 )


    Those that are saved love Him because He first loved them ( 1 John 4:19 )
    Otherwise, all men hate Him.
    Heaven and eternal life are only for those who love God, and are loved by God ( Ephesians 2:4-10 ).


    I'm sorry, Hank, but there's far more to Scripture and the subject of God's love than just John 3:16.:(
     
    #57 Dave Gilbert, Mar 12, 2019
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  18. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    Sure I did...in post # 52.
    Please note that that is a matter of perspective.
    Your opinion versus mine. :)



    I appreciate the encouragement, Van, but I don't feel the need to do the study.
    I already know what "ordained" means, and it isn't "by mutual consent".

    The word "τάσσω" or "tetagmenoi" / "tasso", which is what the translators used to render the word "ordained" in Acts of the Apostles 13:48, doesn't mean anything close to "mutual consent".

    Strong's Greek: 5021. τάσσω (tassó) -- to draw up in order, arrange



    I think what you're looking for is the word, " σύμφωνος, ον" or " sumphónos / symphōnou", which is found in Scriptures like 1 Corinthians 7:5.
     
    #58 Dave Gilbert, Mar 12, 2019
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  19. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Active Member

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    " Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?" ( Psalms 139:21 )
    " I have hated them that regard lying vanities: but I trust in the LORD." ( Psalms 31:6 )
    " I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked." ( Psalms 26:5 ).
    " I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies." ( Psalms 139:2 )

    No, Hank, not like it may seem.
    But like David, I don't like being around those who hate the Lord.
    I am commanded to love my neighbors, but that doesn't mean that I love them the same as my brothers in the Lord.

    I show them the love that the Lord has commanded me to, here:

    " Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
    39 but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
    40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have [thy] cloke also.
    41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
    42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
    43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
    44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
    45 that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
    46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
    47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others?] do not even the publicans so?
    48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
    " ( Matthew 5:38-48 )

    This is what I am commanded to do by the Lord, and I take it seriously.;)
     
    #59 Dave Gilbert, Mar 12, 2019
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  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    You should.
     
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