Don't be fooled here. @SavedByGrace took the comments of both Calvin and Dabney out of context and twisted what they were actually saying.
John 3:16-18
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Jan 24, 2021.
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Reformed1689 Well-Known Member
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Reformed1689 Well-Known Member
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SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
John Calvin
Mark 14.24
Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race; for he contrasts many with one; as if he had said, that he will not be the Redeemer of one man only, but will die in order to deliver many from the condemnation of the curse. It must at the same time be observed, however, that by the words for you, as related by Luke — Christ directly addresses the disciples, and exhorts every believer to apply to his own advantage the shedding of blood Therefore, when we approach to the holy table, let us not only remember in general that the world has been redeemed by the blood of Christ, but let every one consider for himself that his own sins have been expiated
Colossians 1.14
In whom we have redemption. He now proceeds to set forth in order, that all parts of our salvation are contained in Christ, and that he alone ought to shine forth, and to be seen conspicuous above all creatures, inasmuch as he is the beginning and end of all things. In the first place, he says that we have redemption and immediately explains it as meaning the remission of sins; for these two things agree together by apposition For, unquestionably, when God remits our transgressions, he exempts us from condemnation to eternal death. This is our liberty, this our glorying in the face of death — that our sins are not imputed to us. He says that this redemption was procured through the blood of Christ, for by the sacrifice of his death all the sins of the world have been expiated. Let us, therefore, bear in mind, that this is the sole price of reconciliation, and that all the trifling of Papists as to satisfactions is blasphemy. -
Reformed1689 Well-Known Member
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George Antonios Well-Known Member
V.15 - believeth = individual (singular)
V.16 - whosoever = individual
V.16 - believeth = individual (singular)
V.18 - he = individual
V.18 - he = individual
V.18 - he = individual
V.20 - every one = individual
Etc.
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The Lord likens his salvation to:
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
That "salvation" in the wilderness was a provision for all, not just some elect Jews.
Any man that looked toward it could have availed himself of that salvation.
So, clearly, every individual.
There is no way out, because if you make this every individual within the elect, you disprove the point by trying to prove it, for if it applies to every individual within the world of the elect, then the same logic would cover every individual within the world of mankind. You may counter that by appealing to other verses, but within John 3 itself, it is inescapable, whatever your angle, that every individual within the world, whatever that world may be, is targeted. -
SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
The world (ton kosmon). The whole cosmos of men, including Gentiles, the whole human race. This universal aspect of God's love appears also in 2 Corinthians 5:19 ; Romans 5:8 . -
SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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Reformed1689 Well-Known Member
Yes believeth in verse 15 is talking about individuals and it is tied to whosoever, the same is true in verse 16, it is tied to the whosoever. the same is in the following verses.
The salvation in the wilderness was a provision for those who believed only. Not everyone. Yes anyone that looked could have received salvation just like anyone who believes will have salvation. But that's not the true argument you are making. You are transporting that to mean that everyone can believe when they cannot.
Your points have been noted but they do not advance your argument in the slightest. -
Reformed1689 Well-Known Member
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Reformed1689 Well-Known Member
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
A.t. robertson speaks to the scope or extent of the gospel.
Rom5 : 8 is speaking of the justified of rom5:1 -
George Antonios Well-Known Member
But let's take the jump:
If world = world of the elect exclusively, and whosoever believeth is not tied to that world, then, logically, believers are not part of the world of the elect.
You can't have it both ways: making the world equal believers but then saying believers are not connected to the world. -
SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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Reformed1689 Well-Known Member
Your problem and the problem that @SavedByGrace has is that you keep trying to tell us what we are saying except the problem is that it is not what we are saying. -
Reformed1689 Well-Known Member
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George Antonios Well-Known Member
So, I misunderstood. Please restate your point to the best of your ability, I want to understand it. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
here you go:Cautious -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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George Antonios Well-Known Member
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