You say God is an idiot, I disagree. Was that simple enough for you?
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John Bunyan on the Sovereign Choice of God
- Thread starter MennoSota
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You say God is an idiot, I disagree. Was that simple enough for you?
How many people heard Jesus speak, yet their spirit never responded to him?
You are being foolishly and I suspect, purposely, dense for the sake of holding on to your premise. Romans 8 clearly provides the order that God uses in salvation, yet you refuse to even address it. Instead you butcher the context around Genesis 3 and turn it into a poor argument for your pretext. Even worse, you willfully abuse God's word just to cling to your prideful and self-centered belief. You should be ashamed, but instead you dig in further into a foolish interpretation of Genesis 3.
The only reason I can see is that you love your pride more than you love truth.
Quote me. The only one making that statement is you. Thus I call you out as a bold-faced liar in this thread. Your lying behavior has no place in this forum.
This is the type of attitude that Calvinism promotes. Nothing humble or meek in your post, brother. I said we could talk about it in a pm, I humble myself before the Truth of God's Word. I suspect if we were a little more lenient in our civil laws, burning non-calvies at the stake would probably happen in the U.S.
P.s. what did I butcher up in Gen. 3? And yes they heard Jesus, so dead men CAN hear. Understanding is different.
Jon, why would I be silent when you purposefully obfuscate? Your refusal to be honest is notable. You deserve to be called out. Will you humble yourself enough to publicly admit you are wrong?This is the type of attitude that Calvinism promotes. Nothing humble or meek in your post, brother. I said we could talk about it in a pm, I humble myself before the Truth of God's Word. I suspect if we were a little more lenient in our civil laws, burning non-calvies at the stake would probably happen in the U.S.
P.s. what did I butcher up in Gen. 3? And yes they heard Jesus, so dead men CAN hear. Understanding is different.
Yes, I'm humble enough to publicly admit when I'm wrong. You must be some sort of Internet Theologian*
Do you admit that you have misused Genesis 3 in regard to the unregenerate and unreconciled human being able to hear God's calling to salvation? Or, will you continue to ignore Romans 8 and Ephesians 2?
Or...will you continue to try change the subject to avoid your own actions?
How on earth did I misuse Genesis 3 to refute your claim that "Spiritually" dead people "cannot hear the Word of God"?
Secondly, Romans 8 does not speak of Regeneration. That is already spoken of in Romans 5-6...this is not a passage of "God's Systematic Approach to Salvation"...Paul is addressing the Eschatological Realities of Salvation and that it is CERTAIN one will be Glorified, as "[Nothing] shall be able to separate us from the Love of God which is In Christ Jesus our Lord."
Remember, brother, we are on a public forum with many eyes. Christ said, "They (outsiders) will know you are my disciples by your love one for another." It would behoove us to carefully select the words we use towards each other. You know as well as I do, we are not enemies.
Jon, I guess I will have to accept that you are blind to reading and understanding God's word. If you cannot grasp the literary differences from Genesis 3 and passages referring to being dead in trespasses and sins, then I will leave you to God who is able to give sight to the blind.
I am not an enemy to a blind man. I only wish you had the ability to see and comprehend what God has clearly revealed. I wish you didn't run from God's word and create poor interpretations from thin air.
Was Adam dead in his trespasses and sins?
What does God mean when He says "You were dead in your trespasses and sins?"
Was Adam created with trespasses and sins attributed to him?
Do you see the foolishness of your argument?
Martin Marprelate said:
Why is it not 'great hermeneutic'? We read that 'The Lord opened her heart.' The implication of that is that it was closed before. It seems to me like a rather splendid example of Irresistible Grace.' The Ezekiel verse shows how God accomplishes this.JonSchaff said:
Here's another great example of Irresistible Grace. Unfortunately, you have started your quotation a little too early.
Genesis 3:8. 'And they [Adam and Eve] heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.'
So you do not have Adam and Eve desperately crying out, "O God; where are You?" You have a lost couple, dead in trespasses and sins, hiding from God. It is God who must come and find them. 'For the Son of Man [who is God] has come to seek and to save that which was lost' (Luke 19:10). Note that He does not come to seek and to offer salvation to the lost; He has come to save them, and that is what He has done. John 6:39. "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.'
Lazarus is dead (John 11:14). We can all agree about that. It's no use you or I telling him how bad it is to be dead, and how much more fun he'd have if he were alive. He can't hear us. He's dead. Actually, it's evenworse that that; Lazarus is an absolute stinker (John 11:39); he's in a bad odour with God. But when the Lord Jesus Christ cries out, "Lazarus, come forth!" Lazarus will come, the decay and corruption of his heart dealt with by Christ. Does that mean he wasn't really dead? No! It means that the dead hear the voice of the Son of God (John 5:25). So Adam and Eve, spiritually dead though they are in trespasses and sin, hear the voice of the Lord and come out from their hiding-place.
No. God opening Lydia's heart is a step on the road to justification. She was justified when she repented and trusted in Christ for salvation. But God had to open her heart before she could do that.
Why don't you just answer my question...in the passage i quoted, was Adam yet dead in his sin?
Look, Brother. Of course you are going to keep repeating the same verses in Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc.. That's what all good calvies do. You guys have the same responses. You fit Scripture into your theological framework, or rather, contort them.
Deuteronomy 10:16
Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer.
How do you smash that into your framework?
Jesus was giving a picture of the "Resurrection from the Dead", physical Resurrection...not a spiritual Resurrection. See, every passage you guys make them say what you want them to say.
And "Opening her heart" is regeneration? Why? Because you say so, Got it!
Why don't you answer Romans 8 and Ephesians 2?
Instead you have jumped immediately to a historical event and attempted to force a red herring into the text in Genesis 3.
Your method of exegesis is so terrible that one cannot rationally connect your contention to our discussion on salvation.
Yet, you are persistent in forcing two disparate passages into one concept. I sit back and can't conceive of how you make such an impossible connection to the passages. It's the equivalent of saying playing tennis and drying your hair is the same thing, now explain why tennis doesn't happen when you dry your hair in the bathroom. Can you see how disparate your thoughts are or are you just that blind and poorly educated?
JonShaff said:
I've never had a Calvinist explain Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
The Calvinist says, "No one seeks God." (never mind that is an Old Testament verse referring to pagans that don't seek the God of Israel)
Sure they do. Look at the churches that fill up on Sundays with unbelievers.
Look at the Magi.
“Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”
Look at Zaccheus.
Now behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus who was a chief tax collector, and he was rich. And he sought to see who Jesus was,
Never mind the crowds of people that came out to see and hear Jesus.
You've descended into insults because your arguments are failing. So very typical of Calvinists.
" The only one making that statement is you."
The one making the statement is GOD. According to your mechanics of free will or lack of.
I never get a chance to author my own personal response, According to you God says you say he is an idiot.
Look at that reprobate buddy of yours, Why does he continue to hate and reject God?
Lets turn the table. Had anyone made this claim on me I would have laugh it away as an OBVIOUS JOKE.
Of course You'd take it to heart cause honestly you think he's an idiot as we all do.
You hate your idea of God. A "god" who glorifies himself with torture of children, monkey idiot who has to torture Jesus for something he plans to happen in sincere anger against Jesus.
Who decides when I speak the truth? Me or God?
Well guess what God wants you to hear right now?
"Stop saying I am an idiot" --God
Not at all.
Genesis 3 has nothing in common with Romans 8 or Ephesians 2, other than they are both God's word.
It is sad to see Jon desperately try to force a passage to say something that it doesn't say and then demand that others prove him wrong
Hmm, this is what the followers of arminius say about the followers of calvin (Replace "Free-will" with "Sovereignty of God")
No I am not a semi-pelican.
HankD
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