John Bunyan on the Sovereign Choice of God

[JonShaff]

Not at all.
Genesis 3 has nothing in common with Romans 8 or Ephesians 2, other than they are both God's word.
It is sad to see Jon desperately try to force a passage to say something that it doesn't say and then demand that others prove him wrong

Genesis 3--This is where we get "Spiritual death" from--has nothing in common with Eph 2--you are dead in your trespasses and sins? LOL!

 

[JonShaff]

Why don't you answer Romans 8 and Ephesians 2?

Instead you have jumped immediately to a historical event and attempted to force a red herring into the text in Genesis 3.
Your method of exegesis is so terrible that one cannot rationally connect your contention to our discussion on salvation.
Yet, you are persistent in forcing two disparate passages into one concept. I sit back and can't conceive of how you make such an impossible connection to the passages. It's the equivalent of saying playing tennis and drying your hair is the same thing, now explain why tennis doesn't happen when you dry your hair in the bathroom. Can you see how disparate your thoughts are or are you just that blind and poorly educated?

See, now you're just not being nice. Are you trying to "back me into a theological corner" like all your other friends try and do? You know good and well Ephesians 2:1 says we are dead in our trespasses and Sins. You are imposing your own opinion into the texts when you say, "Dead people can't hear". Just admit it, you don't have to be born again to "hear God's Word".

 

[HankD]

Does that verse mean that Jesus will save all men? Is it a universal promise that all will be saved?

The promise was to "draw" all men not to "save" all men.

The command however is given to all men to repent.

Acts 17:30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

AOBTW neither of these verses upset a calvin or an arminius applecart.

HankD

 

[HankD]

Indeed, what do the scriptures say?
How can someone come unless they hear? How can a dead man hear? What must first take place in order for a dead man to hear God's voice and walk forth to Jesus?
What do the scriptures say?

John 11
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

 

[MennoSota]

Hmm, this is what the followers of arminius say about the followers of calvin (Replace "Free-will" with "Sovereignty of God")

No I am not a semi-pelican.

HankD

Predestination is taught in scripture, hank.
Chosen is taught in scripture, hank.
Sovereign is taught in scripture, hank.
Free-will is never taught or spoken about in scripture, hank. It is created from the mind of men.
Read Calvin's writing, which I posted in the Predestination thread.

 

[JonShaff]

What confuses me, is that Calvies use Lazarus as "Spiritual regeneration." Wait, wasn't he already born again? a Friend of Jesus? He went into the Bosom of Abraham Correct? He was re-born again? This "Historical" passage should not be used to speak of regeneration. It's concerning the Resurrection of the Dead at the Last trump.

 

[MennoSota]

See, now you're just not being nice. Are you trying to "back me into a theological corner" like all your other friends try and do? You know good and well Ephesians 2:1 says we are dead in our trespasses and Sins. You are imposing your own opinion into the texts when you say, "Dead people can't hear". Just admit it, you don't have to be born again to "hear God's Word".

What opinion is imposed upon Ephesians 2 when it says "You were dead in your trespasses and sins"?

Jon, you are the one who is desperately trying to squirm out from under God's word in an attempt to hold onto a non-biblical concept. You are forcing the Bible, in Genesis 3, as a method of making Ephesians 2 null and void.

 

[JonShaff]

What opinion is imposed upon Ephesians 2 when it says "You were dead in your trespasses and sins"?

Jon, you are the one who is desperately trying to squirm out from under God's word in an attempt to hold onto a non-biblical concept. You are forcing the Bible, in Genesis 3, as a method of making Ephesians 2 null and void.

You keep saying "Dead men can't hear" as a *physical analogy* to promote your made up *spiritual truth* that unbelievers cannot hear the Word of God. I know what the theological implications of Eph. 2:1 are. We are dead--clearly not physically dead--and separated from God--no union, no fellowship, no friendship, unrighteous, criminals, God haters...serving sin and rebelling against God. That does not mean we can't hear His voice when He calls our name.

 

[JonShaff]

@MennoSota

Look, Brother. I have an important meeting on Sunday. And i desperately need my heart right with God and with fellow man (esp. a brother). I love you, forgive me for being divisive or sarcastic or condescending in any way. God knows i've squandered time from my family and ministry study and devotional time with Him just to argue with you and martin. I'm repenting for not being a good steward of my time. I"m doing my best to rightly divide the Word of Truth, and i don't need to be approved by you are any man. My Bible says to study to show myself approved to GOD. Lord forgive and help us.

 

[MennoSota]

John 11
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Who made Lazerus alive?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Look, Brother. Of course you are going to keep repeating the same verses in Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc.. That's what all good calvies do. You guys have the same responses. You fit Scripture into your theological framework, or rather, contort them.

Well brother, I notice that you failed to deal with any of the points that I made. I quoted from Genesis, Luke and John and you have accused me of repeating verses in Ezekiel and Jeremiah Though I do believe that Ezekiel and Jeremiah are in the Bible. Why shouldn't I quote them?

Deuteronomy 10:16
Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer.

How do you smash that into your framework?

Why would I have a problem with Deut 10:16? Do you think that Calvinists do not call on people to repent? Have you never read any Spurgeon? You are confusing Calvin with his evil younger brother Hypercalvin.

Jesus was giving a picture of the "Resurrection from the Dead", physical Resurrection...not a spiritual Resurrection. See, every passage you guys make them say what you want them to say.

Are you speaking about John 5:25? I don't know because you don't say. If so, it is not talking about the physical Resurrection-- that's vs. 28-29. '......the hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God.' This isn't something in the future, it's right now at the time our Lord was speaking. It's the spiritually dead coming to new birth (cf. Ephesians 2:4-10.

And "Opening her heart" is regeneration? Why? Because you say so, Got it!

Well, what is the New Birth then? The Lord Jesus said it was a birth of 'water and Spirit' (John 3:5). He said to Nicodemus, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not know these things?" (v.10). So there must be some reference to a birth of water and Spirit in the O.T. that Nicodemus should have recognized, otherwise our Lord is being unfair. But of course that will lead us into Ezekiel 36:25-27 which talks about God taking away the hard heart and giving a soft and malleable heart that will be open to the word of God and the leading of the Spirit. But of course I can't do that because you don't like it. Perhaps you think Ezekiel and Jeremiah shouldn't be in the Bible? But you could go to Psalm 51:6-10 and get the same teaching.

Jon, there are two ways to go when you can't answer someone's arguments. You can put you fingers in your ears and talk about 'smashing texts into a framework'; or you can actually look at what is being posted and consider if it isn't what the Bible teaches. May God guide you in these matters.

 

[HankD]

Predestination is taught in scripture, hank.

Where did I say it wasn't

Chosen is taught in scripture, hank.

Where did I say it wasn't

Sovereign is taught in scripture, hank.

Where did I say it wasn't

Free-will is never taught or spoken about in scripture, hank. It is created from the mind of men.

Proverbs 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
Proverbs 3:31 Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.
Isaiah 56:4 For thus says the LORD: To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant,
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Read Calvin's writing, which I posted in the Predestination thread.

No, the Bible is sufficient. I have no desire to read the words of dead men. Calvin or Arminius.

"Sovereign" is not found in the KJV.

many perhaps most of the calvin theological words are not found in scripture.

All the TULIP letters have issues.
"Total depravity" - Man is made in the image of God. Dare any man say that the image of God is depraved?

James 3
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

Should we go on to the divisions in certain theological circles with terminology which is alien to the scripture? e.g. infralapsarianism versus supralapsarianism

All these posts somehow devolve into "My God is better than your God" deepening the division among brethren.

Love one another?


HankD

 

[HankD]

Who made Lazarus alive?

Same one who made me alive.

HankD

 

[InTheLight]

Not at all.

This is not insulting?

You are being foolishly and I suspect, purposely, dense

Even worse, you willfully abuse God's word just to cling to your prideful and self-centered belief. You should be ashamed, but instead you dig in further into a foolish interpretation of Genesis 3.
The only reason I can see is that you love your pride more than you love truth.

Will you humble yourself enough to publicly admit you are wrong?

are you just that blind and poorly educated?

Not insults, ladies and gentlemen. Not insults.

It is sad to see Jon desperately try to force a passage to say something that it doesn't say and then demand that others prove him wrong

Yes, we non-Cals get tired of Calvinists twisting scripture to suit their own needs and then calling people who hold other beliefs to be "fools" and "dense" and "prideful" and "shameful" and "blind" and "poorly educated".

 

[MennoSota]

This is not insulting?









Not insults, ladies and gentlemen. Not insults.



Yes, we non-Cals get tired of Calvinists twisting scripture to suit their own needs and then calling people who hold other beliefs to be "fools" and "dense" and "prideful" and "shameful" and "blind" and "poorly educated".

No scripture twisting being done by me.
You just make false allegations that I have.
You seem to purposely ignore scriptures that speak clearly to the discussion, within context. Yet, you demand a verse, out of context, be accepted. I do not accept such shoddy hermeneutics.

 

[InTheLight]

No scripture twisting being done by me.
You just make false allegations that I have.
You seem to purposely ignore scriptures that speak clearly to the discussion, within context. Yet, you demand a verse, out of context, be accepted. I do not accept such shoddy hermeneutics.

Am holding a mirror up to your post so you can see yourself in it...

 

[MennoSota]

Am holding a mirror up to your post so you can see yourself in it...

Show me where I force Ephesians 2 and Romans 8 to say something out of context.

 

[HankD]

I'll chill out. anyone else?



I gotta go anyway.
Gotta clean up the kitchen and make dinner for the Mrs.

HankD

 

[MennoSota]

Jon and Light, please provide a commentator who used Genesis 3 as an exegesis to explain away Ephesians 2 where God tells us we were dead in our trespasses and sins, but God made us alive.

I would like to see if any person actually makes a connection or if you two are pulling it out of your ears

 

[HankD]

Jon and Light, please provide a commentator who used Genesis 3 as an exegesis to explain away Ephesians 2 where God tells us we were dead in our trespasses and sins, but God made us alive.

I would like to see if any person actually makes a connection or if you two are pulling it out of your ears.

Nah, pork bellies
Hey, BLT's today.

HankD