2 Thessalonians 2:13
It is not saying "He chose you for salvation BECAUSE of sanctification and faith", but "through" or, "By using" sanctification and faith. Paul never uses "en" to denote cause.
Yes, you are correct, Paul is not saying God chose you because of sanctification and faith. And nobody suggested he did. :)
Now if you actually want to address what was said, try again.
"en = dative (sanctification) describes the means of God making the choice and answers the question "how." Thus it is adverbial and applies to the verb chose.
"en + dative (faith) describes the basis of God making the choice and answers the question "why." Thus it is adverbial and applies to the verb chose.
Next you make a claim that Paul never used the construction "en + dative" to show the basis of an action. Try Ephesians 6:1 why Paul indicates the basis for obeying parents is that we are to obey our parents as we would obey the Lord, with the phrase "in the Lord."
John Calvin’s errant views
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Apr 2, 2011.
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Yet another post questioning my qualifications. :) My views are posted in the OP, does anyone having anything other than what boils down to this paraphrase: "taint so and you are a twit for saying so." :)
Trust me, I have received that message loud and clear. -
A simple
yes i have....
or...
No I have not
will do.
Then we could leave this behind us, and you can stop your crying that people are picking on you. :)
I have not asked myself, so let me be the 3rd that has ask....
Have you read all of Calvin's book? -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
If we Calvinists are Robots then.....my sensors indicate an intruder is present.....Danger Danger Will Robinson. -
Asked and answered. Now back to the actual topic. Anyone agree with John Calvin's assertions that I presented as mistaken views?
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In part 7 of Chapter 21, Calvin asserts that whom God dooms to destruction are shut off from eternal life, by God’s perfect but incomprehensible judgment. (False. God’s Word explains that all deserve destruction, we are doomed from conception because of Adam, and we also appoint ourselves to destruction by our deeds including, if given the opportunity, when we reject Christ. Those that never had an opportunity of accept the gospel will receive perfect justice, being judged based on the Law written on their heart (Romans 1:20; 2:12-16).
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This may also answer why you post misleading statements.
This may also tell us why very little is said about your statements proper, but more toward your honesty
Which tells me a lot about why you are crying that people are picking on you.
Which tells me this thread has no real meaning..
and this is my last post on it..
Have a good day van.
God is love.
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
So as a sound Calvinist I will advise you to relax & pray about it, God is Sovereign & he will work it out in His time-frame, not ours.
Blessing -
I believe a person who accepted Calvinism can learn what the Bible actually says and change their mind, just like folks who post here say they did. I started out trying to defend Calvinism, but soon realized it was a no go. How come not you?
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From a commentary on Calvin's catechism (for those capable of grasping the concept the Calvin would address seeming injustice in his scheme):
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Thanks for so clearly showing John Calvins view, that the reason was not given in scripture and that we should accept it without understanding. But the reality is scripture does answer the question, everyone has fallen short, we were made sinners as a consequence of Adam's sin, therefore we all will receive perfect justice, or mercy if we trust in Christ.
The fundamental flaw was believing that the election in Him before the foundation of the world referred to our individual election. But when viewed as a corporate election, those the Redeemer would redeem, then everything falls into place. We are saved by grace through faith rather than saved by election and given faith. God credits our faith and places us in Christ where we are regenerated, made alive together with Christ. Not regenerated before we are in Christ.
The T is wrong, men of the flesh can understand the gospel, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.
The U is wrong, we are chosen during our lifetime (2 Thessalonians 2:13) based on faith in the truth as determined by God, Romans 4:4-5.
The L is wrong, Christ died as a ransom for all, and Christ is the propritation or means of salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2.
And the I is wrong, men who were entering heaven we blocked by false teaching, Matthew 23:13. -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Why would a very sinful man like me (& I'm not exaggerating my love for sin & my wallowing in it) ever want to do the right thing .... that was for suckers. Only the hound of heaven kept attacking me & He somehow flipped some switch in me. George Whitefield's "The Method Of Grace" could of been partially responsible. When he (Whitefield) asked me if I ever did truly believe in Christ, I admitted I had not. I was totally apart from Him. You should read the whole sermon, In fact I beg you to do it in fact (But you will need at least 15 min to take it all in).
Then the pieces began to fit. The only one I still have (had I should say) trouble with is Limited Atonement. I don't want anyone going to hell. But here is the thing. It is Orthodox belief that God is Sovereign. Totally Sovereign....He is the potter & we are the pottery. Now if you have control issues then you will fight that. Its called handing it all over.....its called God's in control & not you...... Its called peace. You should try it some time. Its the peace that only God can provide. I am now content in my obedience to my Lord, happy I'm a changed & I glorify that I have been given a new life (And Eternal Assurance of Heaven). All I really want to do now is Praise God. In fact my doxology is the good ole "Praise God from whom all blessings flow...." Im sure you know the rest. :godisgood:
Blessings & enjoy the remainder of the evening
Steve D -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Both you and I were sinners, and we knew we were sinners, and we wanted to live for Christ.
Can you tell me specifically what did not match up with scripture that reflects the non-Calvinism view. I just posted 4 scriptures that demonstrate the TULI are false doctrines.
You say God is sovereign but you seem to define that to mean exhaustive determinism. You seem to be saying God could not allow his creation to make autonomous decisions that alter the outcome of their life. But Deuteronomy 30:19-20 says just that.
And then you say if people do not accept your view then they have control issues, attributing character flaws to those who hold other views.
Your life in Christ is not about you enjoying peace in isolation, it is about sharing the suffering of Christ as you beg others to be reconciled as an ambassador of Christ. -
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
We Calvinists believe that apart from Grace no one is saved
Agustine had to condemn Pelagius @ the Synod of Carthage in 418 for disputing it -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Have you ever heard "non posse non peccare"?
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We Calvinists believe that apart of Grace no one is saved." I believe that as well. So why did you bring it up as if it was a point of difference?
And suggesing my view is inconsistent with Augustine, the father of the dark ages, is correct. But I address his errant views in another thread.
You said to take a look at Ephesians 2:8-9 but did not indicate where you thought my views differed from scripture. In order for us to reach a common understanding we must talk in specifics without guilt by association suggestions such as associating my views with Pelagius. Without specifics your words simply disparage me. I will accept body blows for Christ, as every other Christian would, so why lob them?
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