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John Calvin - Jesus Died For the Whole Human Race

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Martin Andrews, Apr 2, 2017.

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  1. Martin Andrews

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    From John Calvin's Commentaries:

    Mark 14:24: "And He said to them, “This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many"

    "Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race; for he contrasts many with one; as if he had said, that he will not be the Redeemer of one man only, but will die in order to deliver many from the condemnation of the curse"

    John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"

    "That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life."

    Colossians 1:14: "in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins"

    "In whom we have redemption. He now proceeds to set forth in order, that all parts of our salvation are contained in Christ, and that he alone ought to shine forth, and to be seen conspicuous above all creatures, inasmuch as he is the beginning and end of all things. In the first place, he says that we have redemption and immediately explains it as meaning the remission of sins; for these two things agree together by apposition For, unquestionably, when God remits our transgressions, he exempts us from condemnation to eternal death. This is our liberty, this our glorying in the face of death — that our sins are not imputed to us. He says that this redemption was procured through the blood of Christ, for by the sacrifice of his death all the sins of the world have been expiated. Let us, therefore, bear in mind, that this is the sole price of reconciliation, and that all the trifling of Papists as to satisfactions is blasphemy"

     
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  2. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Re-read Calvin's comments. He's not saying what you claim he says. I blame that on your dogged determination to force your presupposition on the text. You do it with the Bible and now you do it with Calvin's commentaries. Until you are willing to be objective in your reading, I consider it a waste of time to debate you.
     
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  3. Martin Andrews

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    pls stop trying to twist what Calvin says
     
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  4. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    I didn't twist anything. You are twisting what Calvin said. Re-read it. Your presuppositions are oozing from your comments. Ask God to help you be objective.
     
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  5. Martin Andrews

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    From, Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, ed. Walter Elwell:

    "General Redemption. The doctrine of general redemption argues that the death of Christ was designed to include all humankind, regardless whether all believe. To those who savingly believe it is redemptively applied, and in those who do not believe it provides the benefits of common grace and the removal of any excuse for being lost. God loved them and Christ died for them; they are lost because they refuse to accept the salvation that is sincerely offered to them in Christ. Those who defend general redemption begin by pointing out that it is the historic view of the church, being held by the cast majority of theologians, Reformers, evangelists, and fathers from the beginning of the church until the present day including virtually all the writers before the Reformation, with the possible exception of Augustine. Among the Reformers the doctrine is found in Luthur Melanchthon, Bullinger, Latimer, Cramner, Coverdale, and even in some of Calvin's commentaries. For example Calvin says regarding Colossians 1:14, "This redemption was procured through the blood of Christ, for by the sacrifice of his death, all the sins of the world have been expiated"; and on the phrase "shed for many" in Mark 14:24 he says, "By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race”. Even among Calvinists, there is a generalism, called hypothetical universalism, to be found with. Moise Amyraut, Richard Baxter, John Bunyan, John Newton, and John Brown, among many others. Is it likely that the overwhelming majority of Christians could have so misunderstood the lending of the Holy Spirit on such an important point? (page. 115)
     
  6. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Martin, you seem desperate. I thought you were sticking with Matthew 23:13 as your verse. Now you leave the Bible for a bible dictionary.
    Why are you so desperate to be in control of your life instead of letting God have control?
    I'll trust that God is telling the truth when He says He adopted me. I like that He chose me. It makes me grateful.
     
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  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    Thank you for (finally) defending Particular Redemption.
     
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  8. Martin Andrews

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    the blind cannot see!
     
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  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    Of course not. That is why they are blind. However, anyone reading what you quoted would understand what the author was saying. Well, that is unless they had erected a straw man composed of their failure to understand what Particular Redemption is all about.
     
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  10. Tulipbee

    Tulipbee New Member
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    John 3:16

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    For God so loved the world,.... The Persic version reads "men": but not every man in the world is here meant, or all the individuals of human nature; for all are not the objects of God's special love, which is here designed, as appears from the instance and evidence of it, the gift of his Son: nor is Christ God's gift to every one; for to whomsoever he gives his Son, he gives all things freely with him; which is not the case of every man. Nor is human nature here intended, in opposition to, and distinction from, the angelic nature; for though God has showed a regard to fallen men, and not to fallen angels, and has provided a Saviour for the one, and not for the other; and Christ has assumed the nature of men, and not angels; yet not for the sake of all men, but the spiritual seed of Abraham; and besides, it will not be easily proved, that human nature is ever called the world: nor is the whole body of the chosen ones, as consisting of Jews and Gentiles, here designed; for though these are called the world, John 6:33; and are the objects of God's special love, and to them Christ is given, and they are brought to believe in him, and shall never perish, but shall be saved with an everlasting salvation; yet rather the Gentiles particularly, and God's elect among them, are meant; who are often called "the world", and "the whole world", and "the nations of the world", as distinct from the Jews; see Romans 11:12, compared with Matthew 6:32. The Jews had the same distinction we have now, the church and the world; the former they took to themselves, and the latter they gave to all the nations around: hence we often meet with this distinction, Israel, and the nations of the world; on those words,

    ""let them bring forth their witness", that they may be justified, Isaiah 43:9 (say (b) the doctors) these are Israel; "or let them hear and say it is truth", these are "the nations of the world".''

    And again (c),

    "the holy, blessed God said to Israel, when I judge Israel, I do not judge them as "the nations of the world":''

    and so in a multitude of places: and it should be observed, that our Lord was now discoursing with a Jewish Rabbi, and that he is opposing a commonly received notion of theirs, that when the Messiah came, the Gentiles should have no benefit or advantage by him, only the Israelites; so far should they be from it, that, according to their sense, the most dreadful judgments, calamities, and curses, should befall them; yea, hell and eternal damnation.

    "There is a place (they say (d),) the name of which is "Hadrach", Zechariah 9:1. This is the King Messiah, who is, , "sharp and tender"; sharp to "the nations", and tender to "Israel".''

    And so of the "sun of righteousness", in Malachi 4:2, they say (e),

    "there is healing for the Israelites in it: but the idolatrous nations shall be burnt by it.''

    And that (f).

    "there is mercy for Israel, but judgment for the rest of the nations.''

    And on those words in Isaiah 21:12, "the morning cometh", and also the night, they observe (g),

    "the morning is for the righteous, and the night for the wicked; the morning is for Israel, and the night for "the nations of the world".''

    And again (h),

    "in the time to come, (the times of the Messiah,) the holy, blessed God will bring "darkness" upon "the nations", and will enlighten Israel, as it is said, Isaiah 60:2.''

    Once more (i),

    "in the time to come, the holy, blessed God will bring the nations of the world, and will cast them into the midst of hell under the Israelites, as it is said, Isaiah 43:3.''

    To which may be added that denunciation of theirs (k).

    "woe to the nations of the world, who perish, and they know not that they perish: in the time that the sanctuary was standing, the altar atoned for them; but now who shall atone for them?''

    Now, in opposition to such a notion, our Lord addresses this Jew; and it is as if he had said, you Rabbins say, that when the Messiah comes, only the Israelites, the peculiar favourites of God, shall share in the blessings that come by, and with him; and that the Gentiles shall reap no advantage by him, being hated of God, and rejected of him: but I tell you, God has so loved the Gentiles, as well as the Jews,

    that he gave his only begotten Son; to, and for them, as well as for the Jews; to be a covenant of the people, the Gentiles, the Saviour of them, and a sacrifice for them; a gift which is a sufficient evidence of his love to them; it being a large and comprehensive one, an irreversible and unspeakable one; no other than his own Son by nature, of the same essence, perfections, and glory with him; begotten by him in a way inconceivable and expressible by mortals; and his only begotten one; the object of his love and delight, and in whom he is ever well pleased; and yet, such is his love to the Gentiles, as well as Jews, that he has given him, in human nature, up, into the hands of men, and of justice, and to death itself:

    that whosoever believeth in him, whether Jew or Gentile
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus died for the sins of the human race, in that His death was sufficient to have saved all sinners, but God intended His death to save only the Elect that He chose in Christ!
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Again, Jesus death was not intended to purchase/buy back all sinners, or else all would indeed get saved!
     
  13. Martin Andrews

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    No one who believes that Jesus died only for the elect, on this forum, has dealt with the fact that Luke in his Gospel records Judas as taking the bread and wine which represents the body and blood of Jesus. "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. But behold, the hand of My betrayer is with Me on the table. " (22:20-21). "You" in the plural which must include ALL the disciples, including Judas, as Jesus says that he was still there, and left after. I have already made this point elsewhere, that the timing for Jesus instituting the Lord's Supper is very important. Had He wished to show that His blood for the remission of sins was not intended also for Judas, then surely Jesus would have waited for Judas to have left the room, which he did not much longer, and then told the 11 that His blood was shed for them, which would exclude Judas. You cannot ignore this important fact as if it does not matter. When any Church partakes of the Lord's Supper in a service, they give the usual warning from 1 Corinthians, that only if the person is saved and knows the Lord, and walking with Him, are they to partake. Jesus makes the point in showing that even though Judas was about to betray Him, yet His love for him was included in His death for him. Jesus did not make Judas betray him, but this he did by himself. This fits perfectly with 2 Peter 2:1, where we read that Jesus death also "bought" the salvation for those who will end up in hell, because they chose to reject Jesus' death, and not because Jesus did not include them. Please deal with this.
     
  14. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    How many non-Christians have taken communion in church? Do you really imagine you have a solid argument, Martin? Do you really imagine that 2 Peter 2:1 teaches the eventual redemption of sinners in hell? Your theology is bizarre and baseless, Martin. I cannot imagine you are a Baptist. Church of God, Church of Christ, Wesleyan, Nazarene perhaps, but not a Baptist.
     
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  15. TCassidy

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    How many more times do I have to tell you that Jesus died for all before you stop posting the vile untruth that He only died for the elect?
     
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  16. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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  17. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Redemption of everyone is certainly possible, Have you ever met God?

    Not exactly a retarded teacher who can't teach anyone to do stuff right and blames you for stuff he did.


    The look on your face Menno when you have be the one to bring up charges on Martin that he MISTAKENLY thought God to be good enough to save everyone.

    Ill do it for you if you want........I walk up laughing...... Lord this next one your gonna love this. This "faithful" servant he thought you were such a GOOD thing in existence he Pressumed your kindness to be so high and mercy so perfect, ha hah hah......what a joke right? he thought (wipe tears from laughing) He thought your heart was so perfect you just might SAVE THE ENTIRE WORLD! (everyone erupts in laughter because we all know GOD is just a jerk).



    Listen closely to folks like James White.

    They always say the surprise is God would save anyone at all because all deserve hell. God is "SUPRISINGLY" Half the jerk then the COMPLETE one expected.


    There ain't no better way to insult God then the Calvinist position. Literally worst then the devil.

    I don't think people purposely or intent on insulting God. I think they don't think through what they are saying at all.

    I think its a perfect example when a FALSE HUMILITY runs amok.

    Somehow if I'm not a Calvinist I don't God credit for all the good things, And there is this huge emphasis of SALVATION over God's plain command.

    Like if your at dinner table with whole family and guests are visiting, And your kids at the table, first thing they say is Gee thanks Dad for not raping us this week and thanks mom for not murdering any of my brothers and sisters. Your guests would look at you guys like your crazy.

    Folks are demanding that my relationship with God should be that way. Like instead of treating him like a father, I should walk up with my hands up........OK DON'T shoot and the proceed to negotiate salvation. I'm turning myself in shoot me if I need justice mercy if possible.
     
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  18. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    All that and you never addressed 2 Peter 2:1. Tsk tsk.
     
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  19. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    You don't know God.
     
  20. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Well...we know you don't have the gift of prophesy...

    Back to 2 Peter 2:1.
     
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