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John Calvin - Jesus Died For the Whole Human Race

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Martin Andrews, Apr 2, 2017.

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  1. JB_Reformed Baptist

    JB_Reformed Baptist New Member
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    Can GOD condemn a man who cannot in any sense turn to him?
     
  2. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Can you condemn ISIS when they cannot in any sense stop terrorizing others?

    Humans are rebels in every way. We are born in a rebel camp and we by nature are haters of God and His sovereignty.
    Our only hope is that God might take us out of our rebel camp and redeem us, but he is under no obligation to do so.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Six Hour Warning

    This thread will be closed sometime after 4:30 AM Pacific.
     
  4. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    They are already condemned in Adam.[John 3:18]
     
  5. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Hatred of God is not natural. Only God can create what is natural.

    Had all that is good in man been destroyed there has to be no man left since God created Man.

    God even calls roaches GOOD, he said man is VERY GOOD.

    So if you want to sell that at the fall a corruption came over man which had destroyed all that is Good, that's fine you can say that. What you can't say is that post corruption what remains was some kind of man with an image of God.


    Sin, evil is not natural, never has been never will be. It is unnatural.


    If humans "NATURALLY" hate God. Then Jesus Christ has never been human till he NATURALLY Hates God.

    So your going to have to clarify either Jesus hating God, Or Jesus was never 100% NATURAL human.


    There is better ways to emphasize that Human being apart from God cannot do anything good at all. This teaching is absolutely true apart from God all things and everything is 100% evil.
     
  6. JB_Reformed Baptist

    JB_Reformed Baptist New Member
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  7. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I tried to quote your post Brother, but where yours is mixed in mine, I can not quote anything.

    There are no 'mights' with Him, He either does it or He does not(please do not take this as me being snarky Brother). There is no Spiritual life outside of Christ. So, all who are in Christ are the only ones Spiritually alive.
     
  8. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    (Romans 8;20) God did not punish Adam and Eve; He cursed them; if fact God cursed you and me ( I was born with this sin body, so were you (did you choose to be born this way). The whole creation God cursed. Is God not all knowing; such a thing as sin as big as it has effected God’s creation are you saying happened without God’s approval; God is not so mortal. God had a savior before He had a sinner for the lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth. In other words it was the beginning of God’s plan for humanity. Without a sinner there is no need for a savior; God wants mature overcoming sons; not innocence. (My two year old grandson is innocent and there is not anything more dangerous then a innocent child near something like traffic) The first Adam was innocent; the last Adam overcame all things.


    1 Peter 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world,

    but was manifest in these last times for you 21who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.


    Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


    Why would God be angry it was his will the fall of Adam happened. God wanted/ordained Adam to sin; so that God’s people will be changed/mature and grow. When God created Adam a perfect spiritual being with no defects which He did in Sixth day, But there was more to God's plan so he ordained Adam's fall; but in Seventh day God changed Adam’s nature to the dust of the earth a soul man. With out the fall Adam would have just like many you disagree with; a puppet. God desires obedience more then sacrifice; this takes a process of (SPIRITUAL) growth.


    It was God’s choose Adam to sin because God has a greater plan. If God did not ordain Adam and Eves sin; then He is not all knowing. It was God lowered Adam from a spirit to a loving soul, a dust man. It was God who made Adam and Eve innocent; they did not do it them selves. It was God who put the tree of good and evil in the garden. It was God who put the devil, a man slayer, a murderer, a liar in the garden; God totally knew what he was doing with Adam and Eve.

    Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse.

    You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope


    Man has no choose, freewill to follow God; in fact the Bible teaches totally too contrary. It was god who caused the fall. And it is God who has a plan to fix it.


    It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.

    It was God not little Adam and Eve who caused the fall, it was God not little Adam who planned as well as set up Adam and Eve to sin; it is God not Little Adam and Eve who declares: You (God) turn man to destruction, Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse, the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it.
     
  9. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

    Notice time frame God's will was man would sin for he was looking for sons not servants.
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    So that would bestating that Jesus just died for the sins of the elect, and yet did he not die for the sins of the whole earth?
    I do not hold that his death was valid for all, but did he not drive due to all sins placed upon him?
     
  11. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    This is funny first you say "yet did he not die for the sins of the whole earth"? than you deny it?
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus died due the sins of all sinners, but his death was not in place of all sinners!
     
  13. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    Really?

    1 Corinthians 15:22-24
    22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That would be describing JUST the saved as defining what the all meant!
     
  15. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    Does not say that. In Adam ALL die. In Christ all will be made alive in context.


    1 Corinthians 15:22-24

    22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    (order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:
    If God does not call you, you cannot come.

    Again I repeat the Greek Word in "en" also means (in with and by) and these words can be interchanged so you “in Christ argument holds no water” the translation could also say “by Christ” or "with Christ" all will be made alive”.

    Yes much of First Corinthians 15 is speaking of the why we are believers but they are to keys you are either ignoring or dismissing. First being the (in with, by) we just covered. Second being the last being vs. 23 which declares how the all in Christ will be made alive each and there own order file or rank if you look at the Greek.

    You speak of context but with a spin for you are not addressing the (in with and by) which I already pointed out. This verse is a perfect example of where context should be used. There is a time element and all the words line up and mean the very same thing in context, it is a perfect example for context and we shoud heed it deep and awesome message and not insert bias.

    In the first part of the verse it reads “22For as in Adam all die”. In (in with and by), (in Adam), (with Adam), (by Adam)… Amen, we all agree all die, some see this as Physical death but it is death period. We are dead creatures every one of us dead, spiritually, dead physically some day if Jesus does not return, we are dead dead in trespasses and sin, death reigns from Adam to Christ.

    Then in context the very next phase “so in Christ shall all be made alive” (in with and by), (in Christ), (with Christ), (by Christ)… shall all be made alive.

    Then God’s Word not my opinion shows us now… But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Notice how it says firstfruits (plural), The firstfruitsare the very same who will rule and reign with Christ, Some say these people were the early Church, but this is not what a firstfruit is, it is not the beginning of a planting season do we get a firstfruit harvest, it is at the beginning of a harvest, and right after the firstfruit is harvested the whole harvest becomes mature and ready for picking.

    to all people.
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus is the first to be raised up in a glorified state, and all who are saved shall be raised up in that same type of Body at His second coming, but those not saved will taste eternal seperation from God in Lake of Fire...
     
  17. Benoni

    Benoni Member
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    So I posted an in depth point and you post your bias opinion based on what? Is this how your faith is founded on this sinking sand?
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Do you hold that all will be saved in the end?
     
  19. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    This thread is closed.
     
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