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Featured Kingdom Theology

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, May 2, 2021.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    It is not a "spiritual Kingdom" only.....It is Spiritual and physical.
     
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  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Exactly. They cannot be divorced from one another without forfeiting all meaning.

    I do not understand why people believe they can life outside the kingdom now yet somehow find themselves in some future iteration of the kingdom to come.
     
  3. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    The spiritual aspect is not of this world, but that's not the full verse, is it?

    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: BUT NOW is my kingdom not from hence.

    I.E. one day it will be of this world, and that is prophesied in Revelation 11:15:

    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    P.S. I'm still waiting for a reply to my private message.
     
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  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    When someone comes to see the "spiritual" aspect of the Kingdom, they think that that is the end of the story.
    When I was absorbed by premill teaching It seemed as if it was all future.
    When you push it off to the future you do not think much more about it.
    You think that it will be ideal and perfect, so no need to look at it much.
    You take a shallow look at verses that need to be examined.
    All views try and explain all 66 books.
    The timing is often the main issue.
    A study of the gospel of the Kingdom I now understand to be all inclusive and perhaps central to the Christian life. It is central in that it removes any excuses not to fully explore our responsibilities to God and our neighbor, here and now, and in the future.
    Amill is fine, but it does not get explicit enough to me.
    I find it similar to Historic premill in that way. Once pushed off into the future all that remains is the "spiritual realm" however a person defines it.
     
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  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Both are in place right now. Rev.11:15 has been inaugurated.
     
  6. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    They were Premil because of deception. Only later did Jesus' form of Amillennialism take hold. The Kingdom is spiritual, so much that only the born again can see it.

    This means the OT kingdom prophecies were symbols of spiritual realities. We see these fulfilled spiritually, time and again in scripture.

    Please consider the spiritual nature of the Kingdom:

    Daniel said; “And in the days of these kings [Old Roman Empire] shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.” Daniel 2:44 (NCPB)

    “And [Jesus] saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

    “And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)

    “Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)

    “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:50)

    “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

    “Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

    “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

    “And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)

    “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)

    “But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

    “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.” Luke 16:16 (KJV 1900)

    “because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

    “Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

    “He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves,” (Colossians 1:13)

    “When Jesus saw that he answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to question Him any longer.” (Mark 12:34) (HCSB)

    “for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 14:17) (HCSB)

    “I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.” Revelation 1:9 (NASB95)

    “But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.” Acts 8:12 (KJV 1900)

    “That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.” 1 Thessalonians 2:12 (KJV 1900)

    “And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.” Acts 19:8 (KJV 1900)

    “And when thy days [David] be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (KJV 1900)

    “who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son,” Colossians 1:13 (NCPB)

    “For the kingdom is the LORD’s: and he is the governor among the nations.” Psalm 22:28 (NCPB)
     
  7. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Not according to Jesus. Note the following;
    Please consider the spiritual nature of the Kingdom:

    Daniel said; “And in the days of these kings [Old Roman Empire] shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.” Daniel 2:44 (NCPB)

    “And [Jesus] saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

    “And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)

    “Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)

    “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:50)

    “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

    “Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

    “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

    “And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)

    “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)

    “But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

    “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.” Luke 16:16 (KJV 1900)

    “because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

    “Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

    “He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves,” (Colossians 1:13)

    “When Jesus saw that he answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to question Him any longer.” (Mark 12:34) (HCSB)

    “for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 14:17) (HCSB)

    “I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.” Revelation 1:9 (NASB95)

    “But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.” Acts 8:12 (KJV 1900)

    “That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.” 1 Thessalonians 2:12 (KJV 1900)


    “And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.” Acts 19:8 (KJV 1900)

    “And when thy days [David] be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (KJV 1900)

    “who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son,” Colossians 1:13 (NCPB)

    “For the kingdom is the LORD’s: and he is the governor among the nations.” Psalm 22:28 (NCPB)
     
  8. Scripture More Accurately

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    To claim that the kingdom is only "spiritual" is to make much biblical teaching unintelligible. Consider what Jesus said:

    Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

    Notice that Jesus used the word "this" to signify that what He and they would do again in the future would involve the same fruit of the vine as it did with what He and they were then doing. He therefore taught that He and they would again drink of physical drink in His Father's kingdom.

    Similarly, Jesus also said,

    Luke 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Jesus promised that they would both eat and drink in His kingdom in which they would also sit on thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

    The kingdom of God is not just spiritual in nature.
     
    #48 Scripture More Accurately, May 4, 2021
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  9. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    1 Cor 15:23 ---- for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order,
    a first-fruit Christ,---------------
    That is in the past. Presently God is calling out a people for his name, given the first-fruit of the Spirit and put in Christ. They are and will be Christ's when he again appears.

    afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, ---- That is the next order. They with Christ, will >
    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;
    V 21 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this is the first rising again.

    The thousand years have past.

    1 Cor 15:24-26 YLT then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power -- for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet -- the last enemy is done away -- death;

    Rev 20:12-14 YLT and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works; and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works; and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this is the second death;
    V 15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.
     
  10. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I believe when Jesus returns the kingdom will be physical on the earth with physical rulers of divine nature 2 Peter 1:4, of spiritual essence as in 1 Cor 15:46 ruling from Jerusalem.
     
  11. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Because I believe those in Christ as flesh and blood are in the church being taught by the Spirit of Truth, as rulers for the kingdom.

    I believe the church is Mt Zion, Jerusalem above the mother of us all and will give birth to the kingdom at the appearing of the Man Child Jesus.
    Isa 66:7,8 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
    Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
    and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, 1 Cor 15:23
    And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things -- himself -- first, Col 1:18
    because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren; Rom 8:29
     
  12. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    You do not think the inaugurated is chronological to the two witness resurrection?
     
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This "pushing off into the future" is an issue. I think this idea results in an apathetic mentality regarding the world around us.

    I disagree to an extent in that pre-mill has not consistently pushed off Christ's reign into the future (although that is often the case). While it does look to a future reign it does not necessarily ignore Christ's reign in the present. Historic pre-mil, for example, sees Christ as King, reigning now but also looks for the kingdom to come in a different sense in the future (not a more full sense, as Christ is no less King now than He will be in the future, but a different sense in relation to the World).

    Anyway, it is interesting to look at various views.

    I do not understand the purpose of "the millennium" (a temporary state before judgment?").

    But to be fair, my lack of understanding has no bearing on the issue. But it is something I never quite grasped.
     
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  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Some premill say one purpose of a future millennium is to demonstrate the reverse of the physical curse described in Romans 8 .
    When they see a divide between the church and Israel, they believe a physical Davidic Throne must also take place, in physical earthly Jerusalem.
     
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  15. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Um, no, they didn't. No theologian I've ever read on any side of the issue believes this.

    Can you actually give Scripture saying that Peter and Paul preached an amil doctrine? This would help me tremendously in my ministry, because believe me, I've never heard of this before.

    You seem to be an independent thinker. That's good. But even an independent thinker must prove what he says.
     
    #55 John of Japan, May 5, 2021
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  16. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Why was Jesus not accepted in his kingdom teaching, then and now if they aren't deceived by Phariseeism?

    Please consider the spiritual nature of the Kingdom:


    Daniel said; “And in the days of these kings [Old Roman Empire] shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.” Daniel 2:44 (NCPB)

    “And [Jesus] saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 3:2) (KJV 1900)

    “And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” (Matthew 11:12) (KJV 1900)

    “Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28) (KJV 1900)

    “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:50)

    “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3) (KJV 1900)

    “Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

    “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36) (KJV 1900)

    “And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:” (Luke 17:20) (KJV 1900)

    “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21) (KJV 1900)

    “But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has already overtaken you.” (Luke 11:20)

    “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.” Luke 16:16 (KJV 1900)

    “because we are not looking at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen. For what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal.” (2 Corinthians 4:18)

    “Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

    “He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves,” (Colossians 1:13)

    “When Jesus saw that he answered intelligently, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And no one dared to question Him any longer.” (Mark 12:34) (HCSB)

    “for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 14:17) (HCSB)

    “I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.” Revelation 1:9 (NASB95)

    “But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.” Acts 8:12 (KJV 1900)

    “That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.” 1 Thessalonians 2:12 (KJV 1900)

    “And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.” Acts 19:8 (KJV 1900)

    “And when thy days [David] be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (KJV 1900)

    “who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son,” Colossians 1:13 (NCPB)

    “For the kingdom is the LORD’s: and he is the governor among the nations.” Psalm 22:28 (NCPB)

    Where is your and their "Millennium" in this?
     
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree. The Kingdom is not of this world but one day will encompass all creation (a new heaven and a new earth). I did not see "the spiritual aspect" in the actual passage (you added that part). The problem with spiritualizing Scripture is the spiritual often never manifests itself in this world (which is unbiblical).

    I don't have a pm from you. (I just double checked and I have no open conversations between you and me).
     
  18. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    The safe way is to let Jesus interpret the OT scriptures in his spiritual manner for us.
     
  19. Scripture More Accurately

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    You say that the kingdom of God is only spiritual. Does that mean that you believe that the material universe, including especially the earth and everything physical that is now on it, is not part of the kingdom of God?

    If so, do you also hold that the immaterial part of believers (spirit and soul) is in the kingdom but their bodies are not?
     
  20. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    I'm glad you brought that up Dave... I feel there is a constant battle of good and evil going around about us we can't see... I believe an OT illustration of that will prove my biblical point... In 2 Kings 6:15-17 the city was surrounded and as far as the servant of the Lord was concerned, they were outnumbered... How often do we feel the same as we serve God in the Kingdom?... Is the Lord winning or has the devil got the upper hand?... If the Lord could open our eyes would we not see the same thing?... Good and evil in constant battle, hidden from our mortal eyes?... Physical and spiritual trails and tribulations are our lot, within the Kingdom, none are exempt but we would fare better if we understood we are not fighting this battle alone... The battle is the Lords... Brother Glen:)

    2 Kings 6:15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?

    6:16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

    6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
     
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