1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured KJV Wrongly Translates the Hebrew

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by SavedByGrace, Apr 9, 2021.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,427
    Likes Received:
    652
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Wicked, the Oxford English Dictionary gives meaning current then: "2. †c. Of wounds, disease: severe; malignant", also links to historical meaning in Middle English of "4. c. infected, diseased; also in fig. context; also, unwell"

    So, much ado about nothing. I've come to see that's typical for those who try to make a cottage industry manufacturing purported KJB 'errors'. I hope the OP isn't going down that path.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Useful Useful x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  2. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    9,931
    Likes Received:
    1,335
    Faith:
    Baptist
    And even somewhat similarly today, as Dictionary.com gives as "3. distressingly severe, as a storm, wound, or cold:" [emp. mine]
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  3. Conan

    Conan Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2019
    Messages:
    414
    Likes Received:
    98
    Faith:
    Baptist


    So which is it? "Be weak, sick"? Or "incurably diseased"? If it can mean both things then why can it not also mean "desperately wicked"?

    Can you list every occurrence of the Hebrew word in the Old Testament for us, since most of the other bibles you listed were not from the Hebrew but other languages?
    Ok. This bible follows your definition.
    What about Coverdale and Matthew's Bible and Great Bible? "Desperately wicked" and "deceitful" could be considered equal.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    50,198
    Likes Received:
    2,588
    Faith:
    Baptist
    VERY circular reasoning by KJVO, as they claim that the modern version delete much of the Bible, but that assumes that their TR is best to what the originals stated!
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    50,198
    Likes Received:
    2,588
    Faith:
    Baptist
  6. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    5,332
    Likes Received:
    203
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Hebrew "ʼânash" is translated in the KJV as follows:

    2 Samuel 12:15, "And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick"
    Job 34:6, "Should I lie against my right? my wound is incurable without transgression"
    Isaiah 17:11, "In the day shalt thou make thy plant to grow, and in the morning shalt thou make thy seed to flourish: but the harvest shall be a heap in the day of grief and of desperate sorrow"
    Jeremiah 15:18, "Why is my pain perpetual, and my wound incurable, which refuseth to be healed? wilt thou be altogether unto me as a liar, and as waters that fail?"
    Jeremiah 30:12, "For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous"
    Jeremiah 30:15, "Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee"
    Micah 1:9, "For her wound is incurable; for it is come unto Judah; he is come unto the gate of my people, even to Jerusalem"
     
    • Useful Useful x 2
  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    5,332
    Likes Received:
    203
    Faith:
    Baptist
    those who argue against Sharp's "rule", really don't understand Greek grammar. It has been tried and tested.
     
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    5,332
    Likes Received:
    203
    Faith:
    Baptist
    what you have shown is not the point. It makes little difference that the English usage at the time might have so defined "wicked". the fact of the matter is, that "wicked" is NOT what the Hebrew verb says. See #26, where I have listed the other places where the KJV translated this same verb, and in no other place is "wicked" used.
     
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    5,332
    Likes Received:
    203
    Faith:
    Baptist
    see #26
     
  10. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    5,332
    Likes Received:
    203
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Hebrew word "rasa", is used about 260 times in the OT, as a noun or adjective, where it is used to denote, "wicked, ungodly, guilty". Like in Psalm 10:4, "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts". Proverbs 29:2, "When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn"

    The LXX uses three words for the Hebrew "rasa", a, "asebes", meaing, "godless, impious"; b, "hamartolos", "sinner, sinful"; and, c, "anomos", "lawless".
     
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    5,332
    Likes Received:
    203
    Faith:
    Baptist
    this Greek word can also have the meaning "violent", and "profound".
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    50,198
    Likes Received:
    2,588
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "Detractors maintain that there are numerous examples in the Greek where Granville Sharp's rule fails to hold up, i.e. where two distinct referents are obviously intended. However, as pointed out by Daniel Wallace, this is due to a misapplication of the rule.^ [1]^ What is often overlooked is that Granville Sharp distinctly noted that the rule applies when the two nouns are singular and apply to persons, not things. When these restrictions are considered, there are no exceptions to be noted in native Koine Greek constructions."
    ttps://www.theopedia.com/granville-sharps-rule
     
  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    5,332
    Likes Received:
    203
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am not certain that these "rules" can hold up 100%. Like the case made by Wallace in John 3:16, specifically by the use of the adverb οὕτως followed by a clause denoting purpose with ἵνα. I have seen this not to be the case in every use. etc
     
  14. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    9,931
    Likes Received:
    1,335
    Faith:
    Baptist
    According to Young's Concordance it is also found in:
    Jeremiah 17:16 As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee.
    What about sick and incurable?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    9,931
    Likes Received:
    1,335
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Of course it matters what the English word meant at the time it was used, and is especially relevant when it can refer to disease that is severe or malignant -- similar to the very meaning you give for “ʼânash”.

    Also, are you suggesting that “be weak, sick” or “incurably diseased” exhausts the entire semantic range of the Hebrew word “ʼânash”?
     
    #35 rlvaughn, Apr 9, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
    • Winner Winner x 1
  16. Conan

    Conan Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2019
    Messages:
    414
    Likes Received:
    98
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Perhaps a word from the 1611 Translators themselves should be heard. This is only a snippet from the section titled.......

    Reasons Inducing Us Not To Stand Curiously upon an Identity of Phrasing
    Another thing we think good to admonish thee of (gentle Reader) that we have not tied ourselves to an uniformity of phrasing, or to an identity of words, as some peradventure would wish that we had done, because they observe, that some learned men somewhere, have been as exact as they could that way. Truly, that we might not vary from the sense of that which we had translated before, if the word signified the same thing in both places (for there be some words that be not of the same sense everywhere) we were especially careful, and made a conscience, according to our duty. But, that we should express the same notion in the same particular word; as for example, if we translate the Hebrew or Greek word once by Purpose, never to call it Intent; if one where Journeying, never Traveling; if one where Think, never Suppose; if one where Pain, never Ache; if one where Joy, never Gladness, etc. Thus to mince the matter, we thought to savour more of curiosity than wisdom, and that rather it would breed scorn in the Atheist, than bring profit to the godly Reader. For is the kingdom of God become words or syllables? why should we be in bondage to them if we may be free, use one precisely when we may use another no less fit, as commodiously

    The Translators to the Reader
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  17. baptistmemes

    baptistmemes baptistmemes

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    3
    How do you know what the Hebrew means except through uninspired modern men and uninspired dictionaries?
     
  18. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    5,332
    Likes Received:
    203
    Faith:
    Baptist
    why would the English matter, when the Hebrew, the language of the OT, and the LXX, Latin, Syriac, etc, never use words that mean "wicked!. Just because the KJV uses wicked does not mean they chose the right word? The KJV is only a translation and not Inspired or perfect.
     
  19. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2020
    Messages:
    5,332
    Likes Received:
    203
    Faith:
    Baptist
    yes, but not as the KJV has, "wicked". This is my point here. Are you KJVO?
     
  20. Conan

    Conan Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2019
    Messages:
    414
    Likes Received:
    98
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The truth of this matter was posted by Jerome in post number 21.
    "
    Wicked, the Oxford English Dictionary gives meaning current then: "2. †c. Of wounds, disease: severe; malignant", also links to historical meaning in Middle English of "4. c. infected, diseased; also in fig. context; also, unwell"


    The 1611 Translators were excellent here. SBG prefers a different translation? So there is no actual mistranslation, but a difference on choice of words. There will always be differences on word choices even by the same translator.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...