KJVO = Liberalism??

[yabba]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
Yabba, if you were "serious" with your question, then you'd never have asked it. I cannot answer for anyone but myself, but considering I've never read those you mentioned, and all I can go by is what I've witnessed on the BB these few years, I'd say, I got myself a genuine straight-stick!

Why would I not have asked? There are many who believe that the KJV is the only version and all other versions are wrong. I wanted to qualify your responses with your belief, that's all. I didn't want to jump to conclusions. Thank you for you response.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Moderator note:
The tenor of this thread has become nothing but attacks and counter-attacks on both sides, if this continues it will be closed.
Roger
C4K
Moderator

 

[Craigbythesea]

Why don't you ask me if I am a liberal. (Once you define the term objectively.) Or directly confront me on one of my "liberal" beliefs or actions. Instead of carelessly bandying about subjective emotionally charged terms.

Lacy,

Your false doctrine that many Christians, including born-again Baptists, will spend 1,000 years in hell disqualifies you from being either a Baptist or a conservative, and the word “liberal” doesn’t begin to describe how far away your beliefs are from the Christian faith.

 

[GeneMBridges]

A cardinal tenet of liberal theology and epistemology is that logic and faith are mutually exclusive.

The KJVO's on this very forum agree with this. Therefore, they espouse an epistemologically liberal view of the relationship between faith and logic. They prove this by their constant use of logical fallacies of argumentation. The entire KJVO postion is circular on its face. It can not be argued successfully without assuming the truth of its position and arguing for it.

By appealing to a translation of the Word of God as an absolute authority, they invest their faith in the principle of Sola Ecclesia, not Sola Scriptura. This is Rome's view of authority, not Geneva's. KJVOnlyism runs counter to one of the cardinal principles of the Protestant Reformation.

By appealing to their experience and God's "inner voice" that tells them that the KJV is God's only valid Word for English speaking people, they are no different than the neo-orthodox and classic liberals, not to mention Mormons.

***THIS IS UNTRUE! One need only observe the posts in other forums that KJVo's make. We extensively quote Scripture when commenting on a subject. Disregard? Disdain? Totally untrue.

On the contrary, you quote Scripture but use your experience to interpret it. You do not exegete the Scripture. Your authority is yourself, not Scripture when you do this.

***SOME Chevy's are pick-up trucks therefore ALL pick-up trucks are chevys. DUH!

Again, no interaction with What Dr. Bob wrote.

***SEE ABOVE

Same answer

***KJVo does NOT teach you can't rely on the words of God, therefore you make a false claim.

It limits the words of God to a translation, however. You can not trust MV's, because, in your view, they are NOT God's words. Your belief is circular and, by definition, question begging.

Standing up for the truth and boldly speaking against the lies from hell is NOT a lack of grace; it IS an exercise of grace. Grace is not being a weak-kneed rag doll allowing Satan and his host to trample all over you; grace is the dynamic of God whereby men are saved and empowered by God to stand up for the truth and denounce Satan and his host. KJOism is a lie from hell and those who coddle it are no better than those who teach it. Lies from hell have nothing to do with the Baptist faith, and those who believe in and promote lies from hell are NOT Baptists but liars and deceivers.

Craig, for once, you and I completely and unequivocally agree! AMEN!

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by C4K:
Moderator note:
The tenor of this thread has become nothing but attacks and counter-attacks on both sides, if this continues it will be closed.
Roger
C4K
Moderator

If the KJOists would be denied the privilege of posting in Baptist-only forums, we would not have the Christian obligation to attack their lies and the Baptist-only forums could become a refuge for the weary instead of a suburb of Baghdad.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Standing up for the truth and boldly speaking against the lies from hell is NOT a lack of grace; it IS an exercise of grace. Grace is not being a weak-kneed rag doll allowing Satan and his host to trample all over you; grace is the dynamic of God whereby men are saved and empowered by God to stand up for the truth and denounce Satan and his host. KJOism is a lie from hell and those who coddle it are no better than those who teach it. Lies from hell have nothing to do with the Baptist faith, and those who believe in and promote lies from hell are NOT Baptists but liars and deceivers.

One basic foundational Baptist distinctive is Soul Liberty. While I agree that we should be "Standing up for the truth and boldly speaking against the lies from hell." I also believe that youre other statements are much too strong and lacking of grace.

Our convictions are just as strong as yours. We feel that those who believe that there are no inspired, extant scriptures are in grave error. IMHO, Autograph Onlyism is the father of everything evil in the church.

Dr. Bob is a bit stubborn at times, but he is one of the most gracious men that I have ever encountered and he deserves the respect of all of us—not only because he is an administrator of this message board, but because he is a man of God who stands up for the truth!

You know my position on respecting moderators. I whole-heartedly agree with your statement. However, when a person in authority over a debate forum uses his position to try to silence or intimidate those he disagrees with, it is wrong.

Lacy

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
What I don’t understand is why these “H” people are allowed to post in Baptist forums . I don’t see any Mormons or J.W.’s being allowed to post in the Baptist forums—so why are the “H” people allowed to post here?

I come across strong and bullheaded on many areas of doctrinal belief. Almost all is in defense of truth and to crush error.

Now, my tongue-in-cheek about checking with the Administrator about allowing this sect to post in Baptist-only areas [duh - I am the Administrator. Hello?] was in answer to Craig's post.

I may disagree with you all on this erroneous view, but don't think for a minute I question your right to post here or anywhere on the BB.

BTW, we (meaning unanimous vote of all moderators as well as Administrators) have banned a couple of folks in the last few months. And if I attack YOU (not your false belief - that I will attack daily) or say YOU are not saved, or use foul language, etc etc, rest assured that I will be held to the same standard as anyone.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

ROGER...I'm personally begging you....PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD...the tone of it on both sides..(and most of you know what side I take)..is awful.I've seen and heard LOST PEOPLE that show a more gracious spirit than what I see here.Plus...it breaks my heart that anybody would presume to call me or anybody that believes the book and has trusted the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ and His Blood Atonement for sin for their salvation a heretic by any stretch of the imagination.Call me "only" or "preferred" or whatever...but I believe the KJV IS the Word of God.I'll STAND THERE!PLEASE CLOSE THIS THING!!!

Greg Sr.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Also, My Contention was KJVonly = liberalism has not even been challenged. You may not like me quoting Hyles or Ruckman or even worse (Riplinger or Gipp or Chick tracts!) but they are the well-known leaders and spokes-people of your movement.

C4K has reminded us NOT to debate/attack each other's PERSON, but each POSITION. I await some fruitful discussion on my premises.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by Gregory Perry Sr.:
it breaks my heart that anybody would presume to call me or anybody that believes the book and has trusted the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ and His Blood Atonement for sin for their salvation a heretic by any stretch of the imagination.Call me "only" or "preferred" or whatever...but I believe the KJV IS the Word of God.I'll STAND THERE!

Greg, this is a debate. I have offered premises and found only OPINION and not fact in answer.

We don't use the word "heretic" referring to either side in the issue. This thread is using the classic theological term LIBERALISM to debate whether the position of KJVOnly is Liberalism.

And nobody is questioning or asking you to STOP believing the KJV is the Word of God. That is your right! Remember, the "only" position not only states that (with which we all agree) but then says the KJV is the ONLY Word of God - which is by definition Liberal.

 

[Craigbythesea]

ROGER...I'm personally begging you....PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD...the tone of it on both sides..(and most of you know what side I take)..is awful.I've seen and heard LOST PEOPLE that show a more gracious spirit than what I see here.Plus...it breaks my heart that anybody would presume to call me or anybody that believes the book and has trusted the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ and His Blood Atonement for sin for their salvation a heretic by any stretch of the imagination.Call me "only" or "preferred" or whatever...but I believe the KJV IS the Word of God.I'll STAND THERE!PLEASE CLOSE THIS THING!!!

No, the Christian solution is to limit the posting in Baptist-only forums to Baptists. Simply doing that will be taking a stand for what it means to be a Baptist and bring the peace of Christ to these forums.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I will allow this thread to run onto the 5 page limit. This is in no wise an edifying thread as yy brother Perry points out above.

Advance notice is given - it will be closed when it reaches five pages.

 

[dianetavegia]

No, the Christian solution is to limit the posting in Baptist-only forums to Baptists. Simply doing that will be taking a stand for what it means to be a Baptist and bring the peace of Christ to these forums.

This already IS the ruling.

 

[Lacy Evans]

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

As Baptists we beleive in soul-liberty. I will NOT deny my brother or sister in Christ the right to be identified as Baptist simply because they take a strong stand on the versions debate.

Now, if they say that using a certain version is a requirement for salvation we would have a point to refuse posting rights.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Craig...regardless of your "opinion",which I am willing to respect regardless of whether you respect mine/ours or not,I am a Bible Believing Baptist and as far as I can determine most everybody else is as well.It is somewhat not so funny that you would try to get us banned in here when you were so adammant,"peace" notwithstanding in the creation threads regarding your "non-literal" views of the Genesis account of creation.Many in here might see THAT as heresy and definitely NOT Baptistic.This IS my last entry in THIS thread.I'm done.

Greg Sr.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Excellent point Greg. Often "heresy is in the eye of the beholder."

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by GeneMBridges:
A cardinal tenet of liberal theology and epistemology is that logic and faith are mutually exclusive.

The KJVO's on this very forum agree with this.

I don't. I believe this is an accusation on your part, not a statement of fact. Please offer proof of the statement.

By appealing to a translation of the Word of God as an absolute authority, they invest their faith in the principle of Sola Ecclesia, not Sola Scriptura.

That is an upside down argument. I believe I have inspired "scripture". Do you? I believe that I can approach the scripture alone with out a human mediator/Priest of "autograph Onlyism" to tell me what it "really says" Eclessia indeed. I'm the one who refutes the notion that a special, highly trained, group of elites must hold the truth for me. Do you?

This is Rome's view of authority, not Geneva's. KJVOnlyism runs counter to one of the cardinal principles of the Protestant Reformation.

See above.

By appealing to their experience and God's "inner voice" that tells them that the KJV is God's only valid Word for English speaking people, they are no different than the neo-orthodox and classic liberals, not to mention Mormons.

You do exactly that with the closed canon and the "Exclusive Inspiredness" of the autographs. I trust no such "inner voice", at least not blindly. I follow an unprecedented trail of fruit that leads to the KJV.

On the contrary, you quote Scripture but use your experience to interpret it. You do not exegete the Scripture. Your authority is yourself, not Scripture when you do this.

My authority is the Word. Plain and simple. IMHO, what you call "exegesis", often, is at best trying to reinvent the wheel and at worst presumptuous correcting/adding to/taking away from the Word.

I can hold my authority in my hand. Is your authority extant?

It limits the words of God to a translation, however. You can not trust MV's, because, in your view, they are NOT God's words. Your belief is circular and, by definition, question begging.

I believe the MVs contain God's words. I believe some MVs are "reliable", some are less reliable. I don't believe any MV is perfect. They all contain mistakes.

Oh My! I believe that same thing about the MVs as you do!


Lacy

 

[Craigbythesea]

I await some fruitful discussion on my premises.

I do not believe that Roger is going to allow that to happen.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

We have had 5 pages of waiting for fruitful discussion.

Try it again on another thread if you wish.