No, God's word tells men to make a choice.
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Now, I know this was spoken to the Jews, but God is no respecter of persons, I believe God gives all men the choice of whom they will serve.
Jesus certainly has a right hand. And if God wanted to appear with horns and eyeballs all over, he is certainly able to do so. Read Ezekiel, the Lord had a very startling appearance.
Yes, I believe that God appeared to Jacob as a man, and that when they wrestled Jacob prevailed, just as the Lord said. The scriptures say God cannot lie.
Yes, I believe that too.
God does not change, if he cannot lie now, he was never able to lie.
Now, that said, when God appeared as Jesus Christ, Jesus suggested it was at least possible in theory that he could lie.
John 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
That "if" in John 8:55 is very important, as it introduces "possibility". It argues that at least in theory Jesus had the ability to tell a lie. I believe what Jesus said. There would be no need to tempt Jesus if he could not possibly fail, what kind of test is that?
Luke, you might be surprised what others understand. What you believe today you may not believe in 30 years. Trust me, you will see, your viewpoint will change as you learn.
Lack of education on logic the problem
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Jan 28, 2013.
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I did not see your exposition at the bottom and thought you were doing what some so often do and that is post proof texts without exposition.
Exposition of a text, like that which you did, means that you identify the genre of literature (is this historical narrative or poetry or prophecy or proverbial, etc...?) and identify the immediate context along with the context of the book and how all of that fits into the context of the whole of Scripture.
We, as you know, are not children discussing these things. Intelligent, mature, informed adults do not just post texts and expect everybody to take them at surface value. Mature adult Christians know that exposition is essential to making a Scriptural point.
You did that and I agree with your conclusions.
Winman, SO OFTEN, acts as though he believes the Bible when he posts texts out of context and demands that the APPARENT surface meaning be THE meaning of the text.
This is dangerous because people no more thoughtful than he is may be led astray by it.
This is EXACTLY how cults are born. -
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Luke- "So you believe God was really trying to win and Jacob was too much for Him?"
Winman- "Yes..."
Nuff said. -
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
I believe God's word, so shoot me.
Do you realize you are telling people to DOUBT God's word? You really ought to think carefully about that Luke. -
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You are not going to be corrected by a Calvinist. That's fine.
But your "non-cal" brethren are failing you by not correcting you here.
They are not doing you, nor the Kingdom of God any favors by letting you think this way unchallenged.
They know you are wrong. They are not delusional like you. They are more thoughtful than you. I wish they would step up and help you. -
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Was Jesus telling the truth here or not? -
I did not twist the passage in Genesis 32. It plainly tells that God wrestled Jacob, and that Jacob would not let go of the Lord, even after he touched his thigh and crippled Jacob for life. Jacob said he would not let go unless the Lord blessed him, and the Lord did bless him.
I simply believe the scriptures literally. I do not need folks to tell me that the scriptures do not mean what they say. If we cannot trust the scriptures for what they say, then the Bible is useless, and we might as well throw it in the trash can. Fortunately, I believe the scriptures can be understood with study and prayer, and trusted with one's very soul. -
You have failed to do any exegesis. You have not looked at the orignial language that makes up that verse. You have not studied the theological implications of what that verse might be saying.
You have not considered fair alternative interpretations of that verse.
You have not submitted your ideas about that verse to a multitude of wise counselors wherein there is safety.
You have simply proof texted and childishly said "SEE!!"
Only when it suits you.
When the King James Bible says "I create evil... I am the Lord who does these things..." THEN ALL OF THE SUDDEN you stop taking the Bible literally.
When the Bible says, "Men go forth from the WOMB telling lies" THEN... THEN all of the sudden you don't take the Bible literally.
You ONLY EVER take it literally when it suits you.
That is why what you say about the Bible cannot be trusted. -
I do not believe God causes men to have sinful thoughts.
If you read carefully, you will see the wording always shows a person "turning" from God, or like a sheep "going astray".
Now, a wild sheep cannot go astray. Only a sheep that is in the flock can go astray. This is what you fail to realize.
1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Peter compared believers to sheep that have gone astray, just as Jesus described a shepherd who had 100 sheep and one went astray. They were not originally lost. The shepherd goes out and diligently searches for his sheep, and when it is recovered he celebrates.
Likewise, Peter says we are now RETURNED to Jesus, the Bishop and Shepherd of our souls.
Do you understand what the word RETURNED means Luke? You cannot return someplace you have never been. I cannot return to Utah, because I have never been there. I can return to California, because I have been there before.
If we were born lost in sin, separated from God, then Peter could not say we are returned to Jesus. But that is exactly what he said.
Your problem is that you cannot see the forest for the trees. -
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#2- Whether or not it is possible in the natural world has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the fundamental laws of logic
You are apparently utterly incapable of separating in your mind the laws of nature and the laws of logic. -
If I sang Gloryland Way FROM Jackson to Memphis that does not mean that I started singing in Tupelo.
It means I started singing at Jackson. -
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.
6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.
7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.
8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.
First of all, there has NEVER been a baby that can speak the moment it comes out of the womb. Oh, a baby can cry, but they cannot speak, and they cannot form the intent to lie. Lying is something intentional. If you say something wrong by mistake, that is not a lie.
Babies are not poisonous like an adder, and mothers who breast-feed are glad for that. :thumbs:
Babies are not born with a mouthful of huge teeth like a young lion.
Babies do not melt like a snail, even if you pour salt on them.
David was not praying for all newborn babies everywhere to pass away.
So, this whole Psalm is an extreme exaggeration and should not be used to form doctrine about Original Sin.
Psalm 51 is also abused in a similar way.
Psa 51:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
This of course is David's confession of his sin with Bathsheba. Note how David admits his personal guilt;
vs 1 my transgressions
vs 2 mine iniquity, my sin
vs 3 my transgressions, my sin
vs 4 have I sinned
David is clearly taking full responsibility for his sin in the first 4 verses. Now you want us to believe that in verse 5 David suddenly blames his sin on his birth? It is not his fault he sinned, he was born that way, he could not help it, it was his sin nature??
Now, that is how ridiculous folks are that believe this is teaching Original Sin. Original Sin is an EXCUSE for sin. No man can truly repent of sin if he believes he was born that way and cannot help but sin. This is why homosexuals claim they were born that way, to excuse their sin.
Now, if you are so smart, you would know what I am telling you is true. This verse makes no sense to teach Original Sin.
Many believe that David was speaking of his mother in this verse. His mother had children with a Gentile (Zeruiah and Abigail) before she was married to David's father. David's sisters were half-Gentile. David did not have the same mother as his brothers. When Samuel came to see Jesse, Jesse did not bring David out the first two times until Samuel demanded it. David was the "black sheep" of the family, and this is what many scholars believe David was expressing in verse 5. His mother was "polluted" with a Gentile before he was born.
Now this is the more plausible explanation of verse 5, that David was born of a mother that had had children with a non-Jew before she was married to Jesse. Thus, David was considered the son of a polluted woman which was a cause of shame in ancient times.
But it makes no sense to accept blame for David's sin in the first 4 verses, and then suddenly blame his birth in verse 5.
You should be intelligent enough to see this. -
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You probably did not even know about David's mother having children with a non-Jew. :thumbs: -
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In response, rather than address to specific issue, Luke2437 spews forth absurdity having nothing to do with the topic. Calvinism violates the law of non-contradiction and it is shocking how those who claim to adhere to logic embrace it. Truth has no meaning to the irrational mind. -
Do you get it yet winman?
This is how you argue.
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