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Featured Let's discuss Daniel 12:4

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by robycop3, Dec 13, 2017.

  1. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Daniel 12:4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

    In a "preterism" thread in the "other Christian denoms" forum, some posters believe this verse indicates a search for the meaning of all of Daniel 12, & that knowledge of those meanings shall increase. OTOH, I, & many others, believe it prophesies an increase in travel & general knowledge. Many commentaries expressing many views of this verse's meaning exist.

    My view is based upon the VERY-OBVIOUS FACT that travel & knowledge have increased over the last 100 years at an unprecedented rate. it took several millenia for man's knowledge to double once. Now, it's doubling ever C. two years! (This knowledge increase also includes the knowledge of the meaning of Scripture.)

    While there are many views of the meaning of this passage, "Occam's Razor" says, when differing views are presented, GO WITH THE OBVIOUS! And the vast increase in travel & knowledge are obvious as can be!

    An example of an increase in the knowledge of the meaning of Scripture is that now it's possible to install the mark of the beast rapidly when the time for it comes, by means of implantable microchips. This couldn't even be imagined a hundred years ago.

    And on the secular side, more than one businessman starts his workday in NYC & ends it in Tokyo. That was also inconceivable in 1917.

    I have presented PROOF for my belief of that passage's meaning, in the obvious explosion of travel & knowledge.. Can anyone holding a dissimilar view present any EVIDENCE supporting his/her view?
     
  2. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    Implantable microchips. Oh boy.
     
  3. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I have relatives that travel to many parts of the globe. What took months just a 100 years ago, takes less then a day and is being (if news reports are correct) cut to a few hours.

    What used to be calculated a 10p years ago on an abacus, is now scanned with a bar code.

    What was only revealed in an autopsy a 100 years ago, can be clearly seen with mri.

    What was recorded as genealogy in Bibles and diaries a 100 years ago , can now be found through dna.

    What had no national land 100 years ago, thrives as a nation today.

    What “communicators” were in the 1960’s Star Trek, are in general public use around the world today.

    What was inconceivable destruction 100 years ago, is daily a threat today.


    And the list could go on, but would need to be revised again before it was finished.

    Pretty much what Daniel was shown would be happening when it became the “time of the end.”


    .
     
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  4. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    And where does Daniel say all of this?
     
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  5. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
    (Daniel 12:4)
     
  6. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    I don't see anything about automobiles or technology in that verse.

    Why do you pick it out of it's context about the prophecies contained in the book?
     
  7. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    A bit of problem understanding “the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

    My dad was born in 1907.

    Four years earlier, the Wright brothers had their first flight.

    Has knowledge increased since?

    In comparison to any other time of history, even from 110 years ago, has knowledge had such an increase?

    What of transportation?

    In 1907, steam locomotives were the dominate people carrier of much of the world.

    Has the ability to travel increased as well as the number who travel since that date 110 years ago?

    What of the methods and numbers prior to 1907 in comparison to today?

    Seems like Daniel was told the truth.
     
  8. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    Truth about what?

    Thats not what its about. Its about itself. People will search through that book of prophecy at the time of its fulfillment increasing knowledge.

    Habakkuk 2:2
    2 And the Lord answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.
     
  9. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    They EXIST. Can you **PROVE** they can't or won't be used for the marka the beast??????????
     
  10. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    You're simply being goofy and obtuse now. No wonder your credibility is shot.
     
  11. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Of course. That's part of the increase in knowledge. For many generations, people wondered about what the marka the beast will be. But now, the tech exists to make it possible TODAY. Not saying it'll be a microchip for sure, but it's CERTAINLY an undeniable possibility.
     
  12. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    The book of Daniel has not been shut and sealed, it has been read by millions for thousands of years. People don't need to run "to and fro" to read or to increase knowledge.





    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
     
  13. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    THE TIMES OF CERTAIN COMMENTARIES ON DANIEL 12:4

    Ellicott's Commentary for English readers - 1897
    Benson's Commentaries - 1793-1803
    Barnes' Notes On The Bible - between 1828 & 1870
    Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary - 1708-1710
    Keil & Delitzsch Commentary On The Old Testament - 1861

    So we see that most of the commentaries taking the view that Daniel 12:4 is about running around seeking the meanings of the whole prophecy of Daniel 12 & that knowledge of it shall increase, are OLD commentaries, made BEFORE the current tech explosion But many of those old commentaries still have much influence today, especially Henry's. However, actual events have proven several parts of those commentaries incorrect. The founding of modern Israel & the huge tech explosion are two such undeniable events.

    Again, I believe this tech explosion, including rapid travel, are a fulfillment of Daniel 12:4. it's quite-obvious!
     
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  14. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    True. But the MEANINGS of the prophecies that haven't been fulfilled yet, or are being fulfilled now, weren't clear at that time. While some became clear with the kingdoms ruling Judea after Persia, many others, such as Daniel 12:4 are becoming clear only now.
     
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  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    My grandmother was born in 1881. The first time she crossed the United States, in 1886, was in a Conestoga Wagon. The last time she crossed the United States, in 1966, was in a Boeing 707.

    Yeah, sounds to me like knowledge increased a lot during her lifetime.

    When I was a kid our school went on a field trip to the University of Pennsylvania, to see the very first electronic computer that did not rely on mechanical computation, ENIAC. It could add, subtract, multiply, and divide.

    Now I have a laptop that is 1000 times faster and can do 1000 times more than ENIAC.

    Yeah, sounds to me like knowledge increased a lot during my lifetime too.
     
  16. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Recent developments

    Micro-SD-Cards.jpg
     
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  17. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Habakkuk is not Daniel. They are not about the same prophetic vision.

    Habakkuk is concerned with the evidences of his own day, and deliverance of the people of his day.

    Habakkuk is disgusted with the excesses of his people and also knows that the Chaldean nation is also sinful.

    The concern was that of the sinful Chaldean nation that was going and did persecute the people.

    Therefore, God did not "shut up the book" as Daniel was told.

    Two completely different matters of focus cannot be compared and because one was open the other then also had to be open.
     
  18. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    Ellicotts
    Many shall run to and fro.—The verb “to run” is used in Jeremiah 5:1 of searching after knowledge. In this sense it is used of “the eyes of the Lord” (Zechariah 4:10; comp. Amos 8:12). In the same sense it is used in this verse. Many will anxiously search in this book for knowledge of the manner of God’s dealings with His people, and will derive comfort and understanding therefrom.

    Cambridge
    many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased] A famous passage, prefixed by Bacon in its Latin form (Multi pertransibunt, et multiplex erit scientia) to the first edition of his Novum Organum, and interpreted by him (1. 93) as signifying that the complete exploration of the world (pertransitus mundi), which seemed to him to be then on the point of accomplishment, would coincide with great discoveries in science (augmenta scientiarum). This explanation of the words is, however, unhappily, too foreign to their context to be probable. But it must be admitted that the words are enigmatic. The verb rendered run to and fro occurs elsewhere, Jeremiah 5:1, Amos 8:12 (of literal movement hither and thither); Zechariah 4:10, 2 Chronicles 16:9 (of Jehovah’s eyes, present in every part of the earth); and the sense generally given to the passage is that many will then run to and fro in the book, i.e. diligently explore and study it, and so the knowledge of God’s providential purposes, to be obtained from it,—how, for instance, He tries, but at the same time rewards, His own faithful servants, and how the course of human history leads ultimately to the establishment of His kingdom,—will be increased.

    JFB
    run to and fro—not referring to the modern rapidity of locomotion, as some think, nor to Christian missionaries going about to preach the Gospel to the world at large [Barnes], which the context scarcely admits; but, whereas now but few care for this prophecy of God, "at the time of the end," that is, near its fulfilment, "many shall run to and fro," that is, scrutinize it, running through every page. Compare Hab 2:2 [Calvin]: it is thereby that "the knowledge (namely, of God's purposes as revealed in prophecy) shall be increased.

    Gills

    many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased; that is, towards the end of the time appointed, many persons will be stirred up to inquire into these things delivered in this book

     
  19. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    Oh my. That went way over your head.
     
  20. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    *Sarcasm alert*


    The recent developments in SD card capacity surely will bring on the second coming.
     
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