Let's hash out the distinction between Original Sin and Total Depravity.

Have to examine this from the basis of the biblcal truth that God has designated "heads" over the Human race, that stand in for all of us before Him...

God picked our first representative as Adam, and benefited him by creating him perfect in nature, nothing in Adam to rebelagainst the lord, a sinless natured human...

So a perfect man, chose willingly to sin against God...

God rightly judged and comdemned that Act as Sin, and ALL of us were credited by God for that disobedience...

So we have a "more than fair" shot at now being judged, as had One without sin standing before god!

Blame adam and us for sinning /rebellion, for being spiritually dead, and not willing to come to God by ourselves!

God chose Jesus to come to die and atone for those whom he would save by that Act of obedience....

God was MORE THAN FAIR in His dealings with humanity, for if we got was fair, since we ALL have sinned, ALL freely chose to reject Christ, and ALL of our sins put jesus to death....

We ALL deserved the just penaly of second death, but ONLY the Grace of God makes it so ANY could and would be saved!

 

I saw that!!! :laugh:

 

I figured as much!:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

Blah, blah, blah. Cut to the chase.

In 25 words or less: This "ability to respond" with which the words of the Gospel endow a hearer. Is it something the hearer did NOT possess before the words were sent his way?

 

Everyone understands your points of contention, that is, that they're pointless, or in the least they are easily dismantled points. Not only this, but your errors have been proven incorrect Scripturally. When concisely rebutted with Scripture, and with said done in a brotherly manner, this is your common practice; to pretend it didn't take place, to change to another trail, and/or you simply just cannot answer.

I'd say then that what we have here are fellows and ladies that are the best on the BB at rebutting the nuances and errors of non-cal, and in this case arminian theology.

Summing it up, you've been thoroughly rebutted insomuch that your error has been exposed, and this by several in this thread. But hey, pretend that you weren't.

:applause:

 

More strawmen from skan. I agree, cut to the chase without all the assuming misrepresentations of Cal brothers.

Your rebuttals are concise and excellent Aaron. Thanks. :thumbsup:

- Peace

 

There is no such scripture in the Bible that says we are all born totally depraved, that we cannot believe in Jesus after learning of him. In fact, that is where faith comes from, from hearing, being taught, and convinced. Calvinists and Lutherans go against the word of God when they teach total depravity in all humans.

Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:14. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.

There is a depravity spoken of in the Bible, but it is NOT about ALL humans. The depraved are those who LEFT THE STRAIGHT WAY. THEY ARE SLAVES TO DEPRAVITY.

2 Peter 2:15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.
17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

 

So if a dog returns to it's own vomit, meaning, a dog will still act like a dog and return to its natural course of action, and a pig, though prettied up and perhaps a bow on top, likewise cannot escape it's own natural instincts, and Peter (as well as Jude) is teaching about false teachers...how do we connect the...?

God bless.

 

It is easy to connect the question. Not all are dogs and pigs. Not ALL are totally depraved, as Calvin and Luther teach. The word of God tells us that pagans CHOOSE to do what they do, see 1 Peter 4:3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do--living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. Peter says pagans CHOOSE to live in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, etc.
Obviously, we do not ALL choose to live like that, not after hearing the message that saves. For we did at one time live like that, but we did not come to know Christ while we were indulging in impurity…we came to know Christ when we HEARD of him and were TAUGHT, with regard to our former way of life, to put off our old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires, to be made new in the attitude of our minds, and to put on the new self, created to be like in true righteousness and holiness. See Ephesians 4:18-24.
The pagans choose to live like they do, and we who are saved chose to be reconciled to God, through Jesus Christ.

 

It all boils down to us being bound to our human nature/will according to the DoGs/Calvinists. It would be better for us to have been born a lion, I guess.

To quote my Brother Skan, "Lucky lions."

 

Oh yes there is. In Isaiah 67:23, "Ye are born totally depraved".


You can find references to this in Jude ch. 2, Rev. ch. 23, 3 Timothy ch. 1, Ephesians ch. 7, Acts ch. 29, and 3 Corinthians ch. 6.

 

The way you worded this post, it's impossible to disagree with it. :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Please, as you do so well, ignore the "dismantling drivel" and claims of strawmen, they are nothing more than fanciful delights.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of connect the dots...lol.

Those that Peter refer to here are.

The passage deals with false teachers, not born again believers.

They are compared woth fallen angels, the wicked of the flood,those of Sodom and Gomorrha...and when Lot is mentioned, one that was considered just, Peter says:


2 Peter 2

9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:


...and once again we see that in view is a contrast between the "godly" and the unjust, those that, while they may have heard of Christ and His righteousness, are...unjust. They are not saved.

Of them Peter says...


12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Their end is destruction.

This term draws a picture of all men being completely vile and doing works which are, from a human perspective, things that our society reject. However, for man to considered a sinner it does not take actions such as murder, theft, et cetera, it is merely a matter that man's righteousness, and his righteousnesses, are not as God's righteousness.

Man can not help but to be selfish, most of his actions are based upon himself. Man may tell a "little white lie," for the sake of something so small so as to not be embarrassed, whereas God could not. We would think it harsh to say, "Well, sir, though it be a little white lie, it still makes you a liar." And that would be true. But God cannot lie.

That is the primary difference between God and all men born.

God's very nature prohibits that He should work unrighteousness, however small, and man's nature is such that he will sin, because that is his nature.

Christians also can choose:


1 Peter 4

1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

2That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.


Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 11 that those that partake of the Lord's Supper unworthily among them are weak, sickly, and die.

Peter makes a distinction between the way we use to live, and the way we should live.

This is true, however, 2 Peter 2 deals with those that are not saved. They are false teachers, and if we look at Jude alongside this chapter we see that it is referring to the unjust and the wicked, contrasted with the just, the saved.

When I came to Christ I was in the thick of sin. I was a drug addict, an alcoholic, and perhaps worst of all...a heavy metal musician...lol.

God has cleansed me of much sin, much "pagan conduct." And He is to this day still showing me my sin, that I might put it away.

Concerning drugs and alcohol, I tried for years to quit. Went through counseling, programs...incarceration. And within a few months, if that, God took the desire for these things out of my life, out of my heart.

That is the power of God working in the lives of His people, removing sin, cleansing us through His power. But by the very fact that we have passage after passage commanding us not to sin, we see that putting away sin is a necessity for the believer.

So when we look at the commands of God to put away sin, do we go to the extreme that we "are on our own?" That we have to make the effort to put away our former conversation in order to please God...with no help from God?

I know you would not think so, at least I hope.

First, we have to recognize sin in our lives, and that is accomplished through the word and the Spirit. When I was first saved, I thought the sin in my life was very little. Sure, I smoked, I cussed, but I felt confident that I could put these things away.

And one day the Lord spoke to my heart, and revealed a person I had never noticed before. A selfish man. A hateful man. An angry man, ready to take his anger out on anybody that might...offend me.

It was an eye-opener. I went from looking down on those around me that smoked, drank, cussed...to looking down on the person I was. I had to admit that some of these "pagans," concerning certain issues, came closer to having a heart like God's than I did.

I don't mean to say that they were saved, but that when I contrasted my actions and the feelings I harbored in my heart, I was convicted of sin.

Which shows that we have a responsibility to put away our old man.

One preacher put it this way, "Give the Lord at least as much time to fix your life that you took to mess it up." Kind of simple, but chock full of wisdom.

Paul gives very specific commands concerning the things that born again believers are to put away, not simply avoid doing:


Ephesians 4

25Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Put away lying: if it is not possible for the believer to lie, why say this?


26Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

Do not sin if you get angry. We can at times get angry, the question is, will the fruit of the Spirit win over the way we have behaved in our former conversation. I trained myself for years in this area, and this has been one of the most difficult things to obey for me, especially when it comes to forums, where oftentimes we speak and act as we would never think to do if we were having a face to face conversation. I try to keep this thought in mind when speaking with others on the forums, "Would I say this if this person was standing in front of me?"


27Neither give place to the devil.


This tells us that we have a choice to resist Satan, though we are perfectly capable of falling short without help.


30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


We can trust that Christ is our righteousness, despite the fact that in this life, we have much work to do concerning our conversation.

We are sealed unto the day of redemption, the Holy Spirit, His indwelling, the guarantee that we have been saved, and that we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which is the inevitable result of the indwelling Spirit of God.

Balance that with the commands given to the Church, and awareness of sin will lead to the putting away of those sins. We can grieve the Spirit, and quench the Spirit, putting our desires before the work He has begun and seeks to do in our hearts and lives.


31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.


For those of us that go on forums, we have opportunity to please God in obedience to these commands. The opportunity for spiritual growth here is unparalleled, as we seek to do that which we already know is pleasing in His sight.

We responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, but we did not save ourselves. Meaning, because we chose to receive Christ, we cannot think that it was we ourselves that initiated the relationship.

Had God not exposed us to His word and will, we had not have had faith. Had God not manifested in the flesh, died for us, and given us something to believe in, we had not had belief, for we would not have had anything to believe in.

We were going about as the Gentiles, a euphemistic term to describe those that do not know God. But God gave us the ability to understand spiritual things when we were in a condition where we could not understand.

Okay, sorry for the length,

God bless.

 

I think this thread has been thoroughly derailed now. It's gone from proving skans theory incorrect to hogs and dogs. :laugh:

 

lol

It is relevant, though, to the subject at hand: the use of 2 Peter for teachings other than that which is found within it is used sa a basis for other teachings as well, such as the loss of salvation in the life of the believer.

If Peter declares that these "hogs and dogs" return to their former conversation, missed is the very fact that they are...hogs and dogs.

They have been cleaned up, to be sure, but they are still what they use to be. They are not "teachers the have gone astray," but...false teachers.

The examples Peter uses speaks of the wicked who have come under the judgment of God, and this is the fate of these false teachers, and worse, because they have received knowledge concerning Christ, and will be held to a higher accountability than those that were judged prior to the revelation of Jesus Christ.

In short, the relevance being, the false teachers are not changed from what they were previously, but have merely given an impression of righteousness.

God bless.