Let's suppose Calvinism is true...then why don't all Christians believe it?

Depends on which Calvinist you are talking to and the mood he is in...for example:

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Arthur Pink states, [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]“If then God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass then He must have decreed that vast numbers of human beings should pass out of this world unsaved to suffer eternally in the Lake of Fire. Admitting the general premise, is not the specific conclusion inevitable?” (p. 84). [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Again, Pink says, [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]“Now if God had willed their salvation, would He not have vouchsafed them the means of salvation? Would He not have given them all things necessary to that end? But it is an undeniable matter of fact that He did not” (p. 83). [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

 

Bro, when I was a Calvinist I argued the EXACT same thing. I understand what you are saying. I really do.

I also know how terribly difficult it is to see any other perspective than what you just explained, but trust me, there is another perspective and it really does make more sense and fits with the whole revelation of the scripture. You have to objectively look at these verses from a new perspective...you don't have to agree with me, but at least understand my view as well as I understand yours so that you can objectively and prayerfully consider which way is correct. Okay?

Jesus is only revealing himself fully to the remnant of Israel (His Disciples) while on earth, the rest are being hardened. The nature of Jesus' audience and the historical context in John 6 is significant in understanding the authors intent. That is hermeneutics 101. Jesus is speaking to a large group of people, who for the most part are all being temporarily and purposefully blinded.

Let me try it this way... If right now I were to ask you, "Why couldn't Jesus' audience believe him?" You, as a good Calvinists, would answer by saying something like, "They are not chosen, therefore they are still totally depraved and cannot understand and repent."

But, what I'm telling you is that they cannot believe for a VERY DIFFERENT reason. In fact John tells us exactly why they can't:

Jn12:39: But the people couldn't believe, for as Isaiah also said, 40 "The Lord has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts – so their eyes cannot see, and their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me and let me heal them."

See, its not as Calvinists presume. They can't believe because they are being hardened by God in their rebellion. But wait! A Calvinists will say, that only proves my point! God is blinding some people from seeing and believing and that is what Calvinism teaches, but hear me out on this. The Judicial hardening of Israel is unique from Calvinism's claims because this Judicial hardening of Israel is not from birth (like Total Depravity), its not a permanent condition unto certain condemnation (like being the non-elect) and its not a universal condition of all mankind...it is Israel, for the scripture says, For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!" (Acts 28:28)

Notice two thing here Martin. 1. The word "Otherwise": What was their ability had they not become hardened? They might see, hear, understand and turn, right? How is that possible if Calvinism is true?

2. The contrast between the Jews, who are hardened and the Gentiles, who are not. They WILL LISTEN. The Jews would not and now they cannot, but that doesn't mean all humanity has that same inborn nature of total inability.

I wasn't talking about Jn 6 being a parable I was referring to the historical context of that day where God was purposefully blinding the Jews and Jesus was preaching to them in parables so they couldn't understand (Mk 4 etc). Once again, what is the purpose in Jesus hiding the message from the Jews? They had to be provoked so they would kill him. And as Paul explains in Romans 9-11, God had to graft the Gentiles into the vine. But as Romans 11:14 states, they are not hardened unto certain death, they might be saved.

Its not about being temporal, its about being contextual...what is happening at that moment in time that can help us better understand the intent of the author.

Again, I understand your view. But consider that both John 6 and John 12 could be interpreted "generally." In John 6, after the verses you plucked out Jesus does go on to say, "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Follow me on this. You are willing to interpret John 12 more generally, so why not consider that method here? Jesus is speaking to a bunch of people who cannot believe in him because God is temporarily hardening them. He just feed a bunch of them, they wanted to make him king so he went away on a boat. They follow him and they wanted to see more signs so that they could believe, but instead he talks about himself being the "Bread of life" and that they must eat his flesh. Obviously he is provoking them with a hard teaching. He is blinding them again with "parables" and difficult sayings. See my point.

Now, in that context he is telling them, you can't come to me, only the remnant (those reserved from the Hardening out of Israel) can...my disciples can come to me and I will raise them up in the last day, but it is my father's will that all who see the SON and believe on him will be saved and they too will be raised up. But, you Israel, cannot come to me.

Now, you can take that speech and turn it into a Soteriology applicable to all mankind if you want, but you'd be too late because Augustine and Calvin beat you to it. My point being that this is a speech for a temporarily blinded audience with a few in it who were reserved from that hardening process. You can't hardly justify creating a doctrine of salvation based upon that.

Same historical context. For clarity, remember there are 3 groups of people being discussed:
1. Remnant of Israel: The Jews not blinded by God and appointed to be apostles to take the message to the world
2. Israel: Rebellious people who God was patient with for a long time, now being blinded in that rebellion so they can't see the clear truth right in front of their noses.
3. Those who will believe in Jesus through the message brought to the world by the Remnant.

Eternal life is given to the remnant and all those who believe through their message.

 

You got it! :thumbs:

This is the mistake I made as a Calvinists for years. Not knowing the historical context will kill proper hermeneutics. We MUST understand that at this time in history there are at least 3 very distinct groups of people and when we try to pull our theological constructs from texts that are addressing the condition of one of those groups and apply them to the whole of mankind we are bound to make serious errors in our interpretation of scripture. That is what I believe Calvinists have done.

 

Correct. Just as Paul explains just before he explains the hardening in Romans 11:

Romans10:21 But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."

These are people he is blinding in order to keep them in their rebellion temporarily while Christ was accomplishing his purpose.

 

Thanks for reminding me about this discussion. Some how I didn't see this last reply:

I wrote: Jesus is only revealing himself fully to the remnant of Israel (His Disciples) while on earth, the rest are being hardened. The nature of Jesus' audience and the historical context in John 6 is significant in understanding the authors intent. That is hermeneutics 101. Jesus is speaking to a large group of people, who for the most part are all being temporarily and purposefully blinded.

And you replied:

Actually within the Calvinistic system, there is NOTHING "temporary" about the blinding of those who are "not able to come to him." The reason you think they can't come to Jesus is because they were NOT elect and thus are born Totally Depraved. That is NOT a temporary condition. That is a natural inherent condition that will eternally damn them to hell.

The process of judicial hardening, however, is not from birth, is not common to all mankind and is not unto certain condemnation. I can supply all the support from scripture to back up these claims if you want to discuss it further.

The fact that you think I'm making your point proves to me you are not aware of the non-Calvinistic position on this passage. Hopefully my explanation above clarifies that for you.

No, the people mentioned in these passages are the Jews, but the Gentiles will listen.(though the message of the gospel hadn't been sent to them at the time John 6 happened.) Read what Paul says in Acts 28:

24 Some were persuaded by what he said, but others did not believe. 25 Disagreeing among themselves, they began to leave after Paul made one statement: "The Holy Spirit correctly spoke through the prophet Isaiah to your forefathers 26 when He said, Go to this people and say: 'You will listen and listen, yet never understand; and you will look and look, yet never perceive. 27 For this people's heart has grown callous, their ears are hard of hearing, and they have shut their eyes; otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and be converted-and I would heal them.' 28 Therefore, let it be known to you that this saving work of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen!"


Notice, what they might have done had they not become hardened? That tells us the natural ability of man when not being hardened. Notice also the contrast of the Jews with that of the Gentiles, who "will listen." That shows us the hardened condition is not common to all man from birth.


B

I agree. The fact you don't think I would agree with that again reveals that we need to discuss this further.


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Yes, we do. How has God "involved" Himself in our lives? He sent Jesus, He sent the Holy Spirit, He sent the apostles, He inspired the scriptures, He sent the gospel and he commissioned His Church. Is this insufficient apart from some extra prior work of regeneration to save a soul? If so, where does the text ever say so?

Why, if they were born already totally deaf, blind and unable would God need to hid the gospel in parables, send spirits of stupor and blind the eyes of the Jews so they would not be able to see, hear, understand and believe? I thought they were born totally unwilling already? Why would God blind a man born totally blind?

I never said they would seek after God on their own. God is seeking us through all the means I listed earlier. Proof that a man can't pick up a phone and call a friend is not proof that the friend can't answer the phone if the friend were to call him.

Keep reading. The elect are the Remnant from Israel who have been reserved from the hardening, but notice what Paul goes on to say in Romans 11 about those of Israel who are being hardened. They might be provoked to envy and saved. How can someone who was hardened by God, UNABLE TO COME TO CHRIST, while Christ was right in front of him, later be provoked to envy and saved? I thought those hardened ones were cut off and certainly condemned to hell? They are the non-elect aren't they?

According to Paul, "the rest" who are hardened (vs 7) might be saved (vs 14) and if they leave their unbelief they can be grafted back into the tree. (vs 21). Because the hardened is only temporary (vs 23). It is NOT a condition from birth and it is NOT common to all mankind.

 

So, you believe number 2, but you would remove the word "lessor?"

Why do you suppose God would "bless" some of his children with this knowledge while not blessing others?

 

When is the last time you heard a man who was drowning who was saved by a lifeguard's rope ascribe his being saved to himself?

When is the last time you heard someone who a drug addict who hit rock bottom and who had friends intervene and put him in rehab ascribe his being saved from drugs to himself?

When is the last time you heard a hardened criminal who is rehabilitated and pardoned from death row ascribe his being saved to himself?

To fall on ones face in the filth of your utter shame and guilt while crying out for mercy is not anything any person is going to boast about. This false scenario that Calvinists like to paint of themselves being these humble people who never claim they had anything to do with being saved, while us prideful, arrogant Arminians give ourselves the credit for our salvation. It's just ridiculous.

Think about it for a second. If Calvinism IS true the Arminian believers were saved the SAME way you were, by first being regenerated, right? So where is the PRIDE and ARROGANCE coming from? Most Calvinists weren't Calvinistic when they were saved and thus must have been THINKING they were making a "free choice." Were they arrogant and prideful and "ascribing salvation to themselves too?"

If Calvinism is true then we are all being saved the same way, through the effectual regenerative work of the Holy Spirit. The burden in on you to explain why that sovereign work wouldn't produce the same amount of "humility" to accept that the work of salvation is "all of God" in all believers equally.