"IF" someone was so poor that they could not buy shoes, I would welcome them with open arms into the service. And then I would go buy them some shoes.
This has nothing to do with poor people. It has to do with people that have more money than I'll ever see but wear gruffy looking clothes to church because they ain't gonna let anyone tell them what to do. They ain't gonna change one iota more than they have to because they reside in a spirit of rebellion.
And it ain't got nothin to do with wearin tuxedo's. It's all about recognizing the universal truth that there is such a thing as appropriate behavior, appropriate clothing, appropriate music, appropriate language, etc. And there is such a thing as offensive behavior, offensive clothing, offensive music, and offensive language.
Letter from Ingrid
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by J.D., Mar 13, 2008.
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I'm curious about something, though. How, exactly, does what somebody else wears to church, whether you think they're being rebellious or not, have anything to do with your worship of God? And, if it does, should it?
Of course, we all know that song writers of old never did things like you described. They never wrote a song called "Holy, Holy, Holy", or "Praise Him! Praise Him!" and they never used the method of writing 4 different verses of a song followed by using the exact same chorus after every verse. Oh, wait, that's right. They did exactly that. -
These verses come to mind regarding this subject:
2Cr 13:5 Examine yourselves [as to] whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified.
Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
I don't think God loves us more or less depending on the clothes we wear. But we should examine our own hearts as to why we wear what we wear or sing what we sing, or do what we do.
Does that make sense? -
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Everyone's opinions vary, and sensory systems are different, so it only invites trouble.
Never met a soul who can't worship to raw hymns. I can worship to some rock music (AC/DC, Aerosmith, Def Leppard) depending upon the song easier than CCM. I like some CCM, but otherwise, we need to respect our Elders. They are usually the ones, imo, who have a harder time with the music. Just my two cents.....:) -
How would you feel if a dairy worker wore his cow-caked work boots to church even though he had something less offesive to wear, just to exercise his notion of "liberty"? Would you think that is inappropriate? Good, now that we've established that there is such a thing as inappropriate dress, we must conclude that there is such a thing as appropriate dress for worship. Agree?
In many of the hymns, choruses were added later to satisfy the demand for the type of repititious music that is sought after today. Repitition in and of itself is not always bad, but it's rarely beneficial, even in hymns.
Anyway, it looks like Ingrid hit a nerve with you on the music business. It is a business, right? -
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If anything, we ought to dress down for church, not try to "adorn ourselves" for our Lord.
Let your character be free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself said, "I will never desert you, nor will I ever forsake you." Hebrews 13:5
“In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array…” (1 Tim 2:9 heart be also." Luke 12:3
Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy. Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed. (1 Timothy 6:17-19)
James 2:1-9
Favoritism Forbidden
*1My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism. 2Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. 3If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," 4have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
*5Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?
*8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"[a] you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers[/B]
Prov. 29:7. The righteous is concerned for the rights of the poor; the wicked does not understand such concern
In our area, most everyone can afford decent clothing, it's not a poor area. The problem comes with the richer kids & adults who can afford the designer clothing, thus wearing it to church looking more hip, thus making others feel bad. We have some foster kids who just don't have the money to compete.
To come in your Sunday best is all too often a way to put down your neighbor imo. With that, I will admit I have attended many times in designer clothing etc..but it is not a habit. Our yard sales here often have hip, brand new looking clothing for very inexpensive.
If I am riding with a group, and don't have time to go home to change, I will show up to church in my bike uniform. I remain in the back, and leave on my bike before everyone departs but I try not to miss church. -
Seems like David liked to repeat stuff too... "His mercy endureth forever" -
Joe makes a good point. And let me say that if the current trend in churches was toward showey dress and appearance, I would protest against it just as passionately as I do now against casual dress. And I have done that in the past. When I was very young, I was often embarassed to go to church because of all the fancy clothes people were wearing, and there I was in jeans and sneakers. (Man, some of those hats the ladies wore, whew!)
But what has happened is that we yungins took over and in reaction to that we are demanding that there be NO standards in dress and appearance. That's what Ingrid is upset about. She's being forced (not physically, you know what I mean) to put up with people that behave as if Jesus were a "dude", a home-boy, a good ole boy, a pal, hippy, well, you get it, and she don't like it.
And you know what else? SHE is being judged for her standards. That's right - the no-judges are judging her for speaking her opinion about the matter. What is she supposed to do, just sit there and take it? Well, no one is stopping her from leaving, right? So she leaves, and she'll make sure of one thing in her Church that she starts herself- that anyone that comes in with rock drums in tow will be informed that "no one is stopping you from leaving." Is this progress? -
I would hope that a dairy worker, an adult who acts like an adult, presumably, would take into consideration the other people around him and not wear something that might stink to high heaven, if I understand what you mean by cow-caked work boots. Further, I would think that said dairy worker wouldn't wear cow-caked boots and wind up smearing whatever is on his boots all over the carpet.
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tinytim said:Right Skypair, I have heard and used some of Joshua's stuff, and it is good stuff... so don't paint everyone with the same brush....
Seems like David liked to repeat stuff too... "His mercy endureth forever"Click to expand... -
J.D. said:And it ain't got nothin to do with wearin tuxedo's. It's all about recognizing the universal truth that there is such a thing as appropriate behavior, appropriate clothing, appropriate music, appropriate language, etc. And there is such a thing as offensive behavior, offensive clothing, offensive music, and offensive language.Click to expand...
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J.D. said:Joe makes a good point. And let me say that if the current trend in churches was toward showey dress and appearance, I would protest against it just as passionately as I do now against casual dress. And I have done that in the past. When I was very young, I was often embarassed to go to church because of all the fancy clothes people were wearing, and there I was in jeans and sneakers. (Man, some of those hats the ladies wore, whew!)
But what has happened is that we yungins took over and in reaction to that we are demanding that there be NO standards in dress and appearance. That's what Ingrid is upset about. She's being forced (not physically, you know what I mean) to put up with people that behave as if Jesus were a "dude", a home-boy, a good ole boy, a pal, hippy, well, you get it, and she don't like it.
And you know what else? SHE is being judged for her standards. That's right - the no-judges are judging her for speaking her opinion about the matter. What is she supposed to do, just sit there and take it? Well, no one is stopping her from leaving, right? So she leaves, and she'll make sure of one thing in her Church that she starts herself- that anyone that comes in with rock drums in tow will be informed that "no one is stopping you from leaving." Is this progress?Click to expand...
How about a church that evaluates every song in light of Scripture? (bet you can't find too many--traditional, contemporary, or blended-and all of the relative in-betweens--that do that)
I bet, even, with those issues addressed, you'll still have problems with "the modern church," whatever that means. -
tinytim said:Right Skypair, I have heard and used some of Joshua's stuff, and it is good stuff... so don't paint everyone with the same brush....
Seems like David liked to repeat stuff too... "His mercy endureth forever"Click to expand...J.D. said:In every Psalm?Click to expand...
JD, Tim gotcha on that one. Admit it. -
preachinjesus Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
This letter is more proof that our churches are not intended to reach everyone. Different churches for different folks.
We can't be all things to all people all the time on all our Sundays. Each church should discover who they truly are and pursue that identity with exellence.
I know of tremendous churches across the board on ecclessiology, methodology, formation, structure, and polity. If we do all things consistently with who we are and pursue exellence in them we glorify God.
Random accusations and mud throwing have no place in a follower of Christ's life. Rather we should identify our differences and celebrate our agreement. :) -
She sounds rather obnoxious to me. Of course, given the Ken Silva-related source, I wouldn't expect anything else.
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