You have used Joseph but I think that is actually a bad example for you. Did God plan for that to happen, of course, actually I think many of the things that happened in Josephs' life were planned by God. It was part of Gods' overall plan to bring about the redemption of those that trust in His son. But not everything is planned by God, if it were then you have just made Him the primary cause of all sin even if it was you, Dave, that sinned because under the calvinist view He has to determine all things. If we go with the no random molecule of Sproul then that really does not leave the calvinist any logical out.
As for Mohawks & Hurons they chose to fight of their own free will or God caused them to fight and kill each other. Did God cause Hitler to kill 6 million Jews or did he do it on his own. The determinism of calvinism has God causing many terrible things to happen. What we must keep in mind is that the bible does not teach the determinism of calvinism. Actually that did not come along until Augustine introduced it. He brought his Gnostic philosophy into the church. Augustine actually held to free will until he had his fight with Pelagius at which point he ran to the far end of the logic pool rather than stand his ground regarding free will.
Limited Autonomus Will
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Dec 4, 2022.
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Silverhair Well-Known Member
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Any other view joins the friends of Job. -
Returning to topic:
The idea we are free to choose from among available options is consistent with our experience. Scripture tells us God sometimes restricts our options, i.e. hardening the hearts of some such that they will reject the gospel, i.e. Romans 11.
"The absence of free will is, however, devastating to all theists since without it you cannot choose to be evil or good, and therefore deserve neither punishment nor salvation."
So the complete absence of free or autonomous will is irrational and unrestricted free will is unbiblical. Some assert since we are free to choose among various sinful actions, but unable to choose the narrow path that leads to life, it makes sense for God to punish us for the sin we chose. Rational minds object.
We can harden our own hearts by the practice of sin. And God can harden hearts for His purpose, such as Romans 11. God can choose a person well on the way of hardening his own heart, and complete the process. Scripture does not rule any of the three out.
Some say whatsoever comes to pass is predestined to occur. Therefore God is the author of sin. Then some others say while it is true that God to be sovereign must predestine everything, that does not make God the author of sin. Rational minds object.
Why would God still blame us for our choices after He hardened our heart? My answer is He would not. But prior to that those hardened did make sinful choices, sealing their fate. The hardening, like physical death, simply ends the opportunity to obtain mercy. God, as the potter has the right to harden whoever He pleases.
Why would God do that, cut short the opportunity of some, and endure their hardened behavior? God did so to make known the riches of His glory (see Romans 9), including even us which He called not from Jews only but also from among Gentiles.
Our ability to make choices from a among various options can be restricted by God for His purpose, thus the Biblical doctrine is "Limited Autonomous Will."
Romans 9:16 teaches men can will and work to be saved, thus total spiritual inability as the result of the Fall is shown to be mistaken doctrine.
So when you see disputes raging over complete slavery to sin versus complete freedom of our will, consider that we are fallen and therefore predisposed to sin with a corrupt nature, but we are not so incapacitated as to not be responsible for our choices to reject Christ, or to not treat others as we would treat ourselves, because we have the capacity to accept Christ, and strive to do the will of God -
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?
The human heart is wretched before Christ. Whatever our will desires, it is always bent toward corruption.
Daniel 11:29 says, “At the time appointed he shall return and come into the south, but it shall not be this time as it was before."
Just after this in Daniel 11:36 we read:
“And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done."
Note then that we do have wills and our wills do what we want (desperately wicked stuff). Note also that these things are decreed and appointed by God.
There is action that we can pick from, but it's only within the confines of our masters house and it's all under the time appointed. -
Silverhair Well-Known Member
To be clear, no one has absolute free will but everyone has autonomous free will. Can you save yourself, NO, then you do not have absolute free will, did you decide to praise God for this day, then you have autonomous free will. So whether you want to call it "free will" or "autonomous free will" it is still you making real meaningful choices. -
I'll go with your definition of autonomous free will. If I'm offered a plate of cookies I, myself really do choose which cookie I take with no coercion of my choice. But here is what happened:
I see the cookie and a whole bunch of physiological signals are sent to my brain TELLING ME I want one.
My reason dialogs with this saying "wait a minute, there are 30g of sugar and 240 calories in one cookie.
Another part of me tells me "yeah but the chocolate chip has fewer calories than the other cookie".
At the same time my brain is saying "warning, Grandma Jones made these and she will be offended it you refuse".
And so on. What I'm saying is that these all involve our "inclinations" and they are what really determine the "free will" choice we make. So frankly if a Calvinist says that God directly made you choose that chocolate chip cookie I don't agree either. But if a Calvinist says that it's possible that God given inclinations made you choose to do it then I agree. And the WCF to me anyway, when it comes to saving faith, teaches that the Holy Spirit makes it possible and desirable for us to come to Christ and to believe. I can go with that. -
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*Romans 9:16*
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
What does the word "so" connect you to, Van?
Here's your answer.
*Romans 9:9-15*
For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
What Paul is saying is that no amount of human will can ever merit salvation from God.
Only someone who is intentionally being dishonest would "full stop." -
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Silverhair Well-Known Member
I believe that the conviction of the Holy Spirit is one of any number of things that God will use to draw people to Himself. Things that you or I might never think of. I just trust that our loving God will accept any that will turn in faith to Him. -
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And as for the elect, have you ever wondered how in the world do we know whether someone is elect? The answer is first of all we can't know infallibly as humans, but as much as possible the answer is - they are the ones who come to Christ by faith and repent of their sins. That's also why I think that this is important for a full understanding and enjoyment of God's provisions for us - but, everyone who comes to Christ by faith and repents of their sins is saved and elect, whether they follow my assessment of how they got to that point or not. -
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Silverhair Well-Known Member
I have often said that if Christ came back on a Sunday I think you would find many people sitting in the pews looking around and wondering why all the people disappeared. We can not know who is saved and who is not as outward appearances can and many times are deceiving. That is why God looks at the heart. -
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Silverhair Well-Known Member
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