I dont think that we must surrender to the Lordship of Christ to be saved but I believe someone who is saved will surrender to the Lordship of Christ.
When salvation and true repentance in the heart happens, it seems to me that we turn to Jesus and trust in Him for mercy and forgiveness of sins. We are justified by faith.
I would then go on to say that when we are justified by faith that we have turned to Christ in faith and that begs for the surrender to His Lordship alone (simoultaneously).
In other words. Jesus isnt looking for a trade, so to speak. He wants our complete submission, but through the transformation of salvation our hearts submit to His Lordship freely, which is pleasing to God.
Therefore a regenerate person will call Jesus Lord and Jesus will be his/her Lord. It doesnt make sense for me at this point for someone to say that they have seen their sin to a point that makes them cry out for mercy and then get saved only to continue in their sin by denying Christ as Lord. That sounds like self-deception to me to say that you have been saved but still have other lords before God.
Lordship necessary for salvation
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Aug 13, 2010.
Page 2 of 7
-
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The thing is, these things (title vs. proper name) matter in syntax and semantics. For example, in Japanese a person's title comes right after the person's name. In some cases a word is used as a title that is not normally considered to be one, such as yougisha (suspect), which becomes a title when placed after someone's name, as in Tanaka Yougisha, "Suspect Tanaka." So I believe that Dr. Wallace should take into account the fact that kurios is often a title, do some more of that wonderful research he does and inform us of the role of a title in a double accusative.
Yes, I know that Dr. Wallace said the proper name is the object of the sentence and the other word is the complement. But my point was that Kurios could just as well be considered a proper name, making there two proper names in the double accusative. And Dr. Wallace didn't discuss that. But evidently his research is ongoing (comparing his grammar and his article), so maybe he'll get to that. Or the various usages of Greek titles would make somebody a good dissertation.:type: -
Trust and surrender are two sides of the same coin. You cannot have one without the other.
The man in the window seal is surrendering his life into the care of the firemen on the ground. While in the window seal his fate was in his own hands. He surrenders that when he leaps.
When you deposit your paycheck into your bank account you are trusting them with it. The essence of that is that you are surrendering it's care fully into their hands.
When you trust Christ you surrender your life and soul and all into his care. If you are not willing to surrender to Him then you are not truly trusting him with it and therefore you are not truly saved. -
If I confess you as King of the World John, then if I live in your world I am confessing you are the king of me.
Is that not true. When I confess that you are Lord of earth and I am on the earth then I am confessing that you are Lord of me.
This is what all must do to be saved.
Children must do this as well. Lordship is simple enough for children to understand. I baptized an eleven year old girl Sunday who came forward and gave her heart to Christ (in other words surrendered her heart to him) and gladly confessed him as Lord.
A child not yet mature enough to understand that God is Lord and demands to rule every part of His creation is not ready to be converted. But I baptized a five year old several months ago who understood it clearly.
I usually say, "This means Jesus is the boss- not you. He gets to rule your life- not you. Are you willing to let Jesus be your King, your Master, your boss?"
Very small children have no problem understanding this. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Then if you put your money in the bank you are making the bank lord of your life? I'm sorry, that's even a worse illustration. My sister-in-law once pulled all her money out of a bank because they wouldn't let her take out an amount from her savings account. So who was the "lord" there?
Admit it--these are poor illustrations of making Christ Lord of one's life. Either that, or the Lordship of Christ does not mean obedience to you like it does to me. Trust and surrender to lordship are not the same thing. -
Jedi Knight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I don't think the gospel in today's contemporary church is being presented well enough for the non elect to reject it.
-
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Consider: the word for "little child" in Matt. 18:3 is the Greek word paidion, not the generic word for child, which is teknon. Here is a definition for paidion from the Anlex Greek dictionary: "(1) literally, of age; (a) as a newborn child infant, babe (HE 11.23); (b) as a small child (young) child (MT 2.8)." In Matthew's usage Jesus as a baby was a paidion, and up to two years old (Matt. 2:8) was a paidion.
So the 11 year old does not fill the bill for Matt. 18:3, and your 5 year old probably does not either (some might debate that); only a baby or toddler does. And a toddler can trust, but not commit. (But apparantly you believe that trust and obedience are synonyms, against all dictionary definitions.) Lordship salvation demands that a person commit their lives to the Lord to obey Him in order to be saved. I don't believe the Bible teaches that in light of Matt. 18:3. -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
I think this is a common, perhaps even a text-book, definition of Lordship Salvation. But, I think this definition is hopelessly wrong.
I whole-heartedly believe in Lordship salvation, but will readily admit that perfect obedience isn't possible. I don't think that is the issue.
Many of the Non-lordship salvation types I've seen and investigated seem to think that you can claim faith in Christ and live like the world. It would seem these people say that a Christian can sin all they want with no problem. I very firmly say: This is heresy and it is a sign that someone is not a Christian. They are, in the words of Ephesians 2, still sons of disobedience.
On the other hand, the Lordship types--such as myself--argue that the heart-attitude of obedience is required (ie. Lordship) while understanding that, because we are sinners, perfect obedience is not possible. Typically, those believing in Lordship salvation will say we sin more than we want to.
Us Lordship-types will rightly say that a person's Christianity (or lack thereof) will necessarily be visible through the fruit of their lives. Part of that fruit is continued confession and repentance when we sin.
That Christians must have Christ be Lord in addition to Savior is as endemic to Christianity as wetness is to water. In other words, just as water is, by definition, wet, the Christian, by definition, has Jesus as his Lord.
Blessings,
The Archangel -
Yet I will agree that is is becoming a slogon for christians to repeat how Jesus is Lord, yet they don't reflect it themselves.
Darren
Daren -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
I don't think we look for maturity overnight. I think maturity is a process. It is right, I think, to refer to "Sanctification" which will never be fully completed until we are in His presence.
Even those of us Lordship-types have very bad moments of utter disobedience. When we say that a believer, by definition, will be obedient to Christ, we understand that we do not mean a Polaroid-type snapshot viewing that moment of disobedience. We mean to say that the life of a true believer will, by definition, be marked by a life of obedience and repentance when we do not obey.
I would expect a new believer to struggle with things that, hopefully, more mature Christians have dealt with. But, in the neophytic believer, it should be the case that obedience improves over the course of his or her walk with Christ.
Blessings,
The Archangel -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The truth is the Christ is Lord whether we "have Him as Lord" or not. And He is Lord of all, not just believers. No decision or effort by a believer can make Christ Lord. So the argument should be "acknowledge Christ" as Lord. Check out 1 Cor. 6:19-20, "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." So his argument here is that we should obey because we are bought with a price. -
The only issue for us is to teach and admonish all those whom name the name of Jesus, to depart from sin wherever humanly possible, follow Jesus as Lord of all, grow and mature in knowledge of the bible and apply themselves to study and find a place of service..etc Then the only other issue is to live a christian life that is a testimony to the glory of God.
Darren -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I have a man in my church who within a short time lost his business, lost his wife and found out that his Hepatitis C was active. When I went to his house every week to teach him about Christ, sure I talked about Christ as Lord. But he was sinking fast (the poor man is still depressed) and about to drown. He needed a Savior, not a Lord, Creator, King or any other title of Christ's. And when he trusted Christ as Savior (without consciously trusting Him as Lord), his life changed because he was born again. He has over and over again marvelled how his life changed. This is what the Gospel message is, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures and rose from the grave according to the Scriptures--the atoning work of Christ and the power of His resurrection. -
Darren -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
As to why I don't present the two together, I'm wondering if you actually read my post. So I'll ask you directly. You are commanded to give the Gospel to all people. What do you believe the Gospel is? -
Darren -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
The Archangel Well-Known Member
Romans 12:1 doesn't stop there! There is a Romans 12:2 and following. The imperatives "don't be conformed" and "be transformed" are highly instructive.
In either case, these passages show us and encourage us to constantly check our lives to make sure we are taking up our crosses and being transformed.
I'm not sure your particular theology; I'm fairly certain it isn't reformed. But the kingship issue (or lordship issue) shows how there is a divide between reformed and non-reformed and it is based on the nature of man before coming to Christ.
Now, I don't intend this to be a reformed-non-reformed discussion and I certainly don't intend to say that your theology is lacking (since I don't know exactly what your theology is). I am merely attempting to point out that certain theological differences can (and probably do) contribute to the divide between the LS and the nLS types.
Blessings,
The Archangel -
John of Japan said: ↑I'm sorry, maybe I'm dense,Click to expand...
but I don't know what you want me to respond to here. You might want to rephrase it to help me understand you. I don't believe in Lordship salvation, and don't believe the Scriptures teach it.Click to expand...
Anything less is illogical. Consider the following:
"Are you, Sir, a citizen of Earth?"
"Why yes, I am"
"Do you confess that John is- King of the Earth John?"
"Unequivocally".
"Then as a member of earth, you believe him to be your King?"
"No."
That is illogical.
If Jesus is Lord of all, Supreme Ruler of all, and he is, and one confesses him as such by saying- "Jesus Christ is Lord"- then he is confessing that Jesus is HIS Lord by virtue of the fact that he is included in "all".
This is what all must do if they hope to be saved. They must confess that Jesus Christ is LORD which logically means they are confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord of them.
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the- Lord (Supreme Ruler of all including you) Jesus... thou shalt be saved.Click to expand...
Page 2 of 7