Many Christians discovering meditation

[Thinkingstuff]

You don't have to speak it out loud necessarily, just note what happens to stand out for you on the first two readings. Lectio is a bit different from what I understand most evangelicals mean by the term 'quiet time', in that it is a specific discipline or method of reading Scripture, usually based on the Church's lectionary. It's neither just opening the Bible at random and reading it in the hope that the Holy Spirit will speak to us*, nor is it a 'Bible study' involving Bible-reading notes, both of which in my experience tend to be meant when evangelicals use the phrase 'quiet time'.

*Not that I'm saying or implying that the Holy Spirit speaks to us by this method - He does - just that that isn't lectio.

[ETA - BTW, it's Tourette's syndrome!]

I was considering the questions that you state you're asking yourself which I do every quiet time. I don't read the bible randomly but purposefully depending on what area's of my life are currently affected so I guess thats different than the Lectio (based off the liturgical year selected readings). However, the questions are the same. And protestants have the ability to step outside the liturgical year readings which is nice. I'm a bad speller. Just horrible. And just to think I made it through Grad school. For which I thank my wife an editor. On the other hand I have no editor on these posts

 

[Matt Black]

Pros and cons - the lectionary forces us to be disciplined about what we read (if we choose to follow it) rather than cherry-pick the Scriptures we like, but I agree that there is also a need to step outside of that box from time to time as the Spirit prompts.

 

[webdog]

We are not told anywhere not to meditate. When Jesus went into the wilderness to pray I am sure he spent time listening ... meditating.

We are not told anywhere to not walk into oncoming traffic either...and that's a bad idea.

Joshua 1:8 says,

Quote:
8 Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful.

Nowhere does this mean to sit around in a group in utter silence wating for some "inner voice". This means to absorb what Scripture says, and bring it to mind often. The meditation I'm reading about in the OP sounds new age to the core, and has no place in the Church.

Here are more Biblical references to meditation:

...and none allude to the fact of meditation occuring as has been brought up in the OP.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Crabtownboy certainly lined out the approach to “meditation” in a biblical sense and his suggestion to read the Fourth Century Desert Fathers is best by far to get a good understanding of mediation especially from an Eastern Orthodox perspective.

Granted the Eastern Orthodox Church with her prayer rule, incense and chanting are certainly attractive to “New Agers” and we certainly have our fair share of these types attend our Catechesis classes that were originally involved in Buddhism and the like. Some understand the differences between the spirituality of the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Far Eastern Religions and some don’t, and those that don’t leave.

As a former Baptist I was never exposed to “meditation” or New Age stuff, but friends that I’ve recently met explained it that since God is everywhere in the universe, He is also in us. Therefore, if one wants to find God, they have to find themselves. With Meditation, one tries to completely switch off every thought, to think absolutely nothing. Thus one is able to find himself and is then able to find God.

The above explanation is rejected by the Orthodox Church. As an Orthodox Christian myself, the way I see meditation is that we try to listen to the small quite voice, but we recognize that there are also other voices out there that would mislead us if we allow it. There is certainly an aspect of quietness and “tuning out” in the psalmist’s command to “…be still, and know that I AM GOD.” But Orthodoxy speaks more about focusing in rather than switching off. Discernment plays a big part. If we drop all our defenses, who knows what will sneak into our consciousness and how do we know where it comes from? The “open mind” that accepts everything eventually believes nothing. Rather than switching off, Orthodoxy and the Fathers talk about “nepsis” or spiritual watchfulness.

I will leave the discussion with a quote from Elder Joseph the Hesychast from the book “Monastic Wisdom” about meditation.

The term "meditation," as used by the Holy Fathers, indicates a thoughtful reflection or pondering upon a certain aspect of the faith, e.g. the Incarnation, God's mercy, the Crucifixion, the Transfiguration, one's sinfulness, etc. This is quite different from what is known as "Eastern meditation," which is the use of various psychosomatic techniques intended to bring about self-identification with a "supreme being" (or so-called "deity"), an "impersonal reality," or even nothingness. On the other hand, for an Orthodox Christian, meditation brings about humility, gratitude, and love, and is a preparation for prayer, which is a personal experience of the one, true, living God."See p.403​

In XC
-

 

[webdog]

As a former Baptist I was never exposed to “meditation” or New Age stuff, but friends that I’ve recently met explained it that since God is everywhere in the universe, He is also in us. Therefore, if one wants to find God, they have to find themselves. With Meditation, one tries to completely switch off every thought, to think absolutely nothing. Thus one is able to find himself and is then able to find God.

This is the biggest load of garbage from the pits of hell! Please, rethink your new age beliefs!

 

[Agnus_Dei]

This is the biggest load of garbage from the pits of hell! Please, rethink your new age beliefs!

Enlighten me dog...

In XC
-

 

[donnA]

New age has certainly infilterated the church of today. And the shame is christians in general do not see it, or understand it, so they blindly accept doctrines of devils, while sacrificing scripture and worship of the one true God.

 

[Marcia]

We are not told anywhere not to meditate. When Jesus went into the wilderness to pray I am sure he spent time listening ... meditating.

You have no evidence of that at all. When the Bible says Jesus went off somewhere, either it does not say what he did or it says he went off to pray. I doubt he was going into an altered state or repeating a mantra. We can't use these passages to endorse the type of meditation coming into the church today.

Here are more Biblical references to meditation:

Did you read what I wrote about the different meanings given to this word? The Biblical word for meditation has nothing to do with the contemplative meditation practices becoming popular in churches today. These practices use techniques to go into altered states, some from eastern religions. I practiced Eastern meditation for about 15 yrs. I've also done an extensive word study on the word translated as "meditation" in the OT (where it is found). It has to do with either memorizing, uttering, or thinking on God's word.

I attended a 3 hour session with Thomas Keating, one of the foremost promoters of this contemplative meditation practice. His "meditation" is not biblical meditation. The latter means to study and ponder with the mind, not go into some kind of state through breathing techniques, repeating words, etc. I also spoke with Rev Keating privately for 20 min. He could not give me a scripture to support what he is teaching.

I've read some of the desert fathers - their teachings do not trump the Bible. The word for meditation in the Bible has nothing to do with techniques being taught now.

 

[Marcia]

Marcia, I assume that you don't have any problems with meditative techniques on Scripture such as lectio divina or Ignatian meditation, which help make Scripture 'come alive' to the reader/hearer of the Word?

[ETA - for the record, I too have problems about any attempt to integrate Hindu or Buddhist meditation into mainstream Christianity. I also have reservations about the likes of Thomas Merton.]

Yes, I do have problems with what I undestand to be lectio divina. I also realize it is not always taught the same way. But the way Richard Foster and some others are teaching it, it is not biblical at all. It's a mystical way to approach the Bible, and these people even say not to think when you're reading. Not as familiar with Ignation meditation, though some of what I read of it sounded okay. But not the part about visualizing Jesus (is that a regular part of it?).

The bottom line is: We do not need techniques to pray. And we hear God through His word.

Glad you have reservations about Thomas Merton. He wanted to start a buddhist meditation center in the U.S.! Imagine that! Why would a Christian want to do that? Well, Merton was in love with Buddhism.

 

[Marcia]

Marcia, in my OP I said:



If you read my quote carefully I did not say the "still small voice" inside ourselves, but the "still small voice" of God ... guess I was not clear. But as you said, "utter silence."

But God did not speak in "utter silence." He spoke in words! And this is not a directive - it's a narrative about God and a prophet. This is not how we are to hear God. We have the Bible.

 

[Marcia]

Lectio divina means that you read a passage of Scripture slowly twice, and then think or speak out one or two words or phrases which leap out at you. You then read it a third time, asking yourself the question, "What is God saying to me in this passage?" You read it a final time, asking yourself the question, "What should my response to God from this passage be?" So, no, not mindless repetition. (Even if it was, it's Scripture, not some Vedic mantra, so what's wrong with that? If nothing else, it's a good way of memorising chunks of the Bible.)

[reply to Thinkingstuff]

I have to say I do not think this is a good or valid way to read the Bible. It's very subjective and mystical. Words mean something - we don't need to let something "leap out at us" to discover what God is saying.

The way to read the Bible is to read it for what it meant to the audience at the time, to read it in context, to compare it to other scripture it relates to, and then you decide how to apply it to your life. Otherwise, you can come up with people getting all sorts of message that aren't there.

I also realize that this happens without lectio divina.

 

[Jim1999]

I believe there is value to remaining silent in a contemplative mood during one's quiet time. I have done it all my life, and I am certainly not New Age by a stretch. I read a portion of scripture, following a routine, and not just flopping the Bible down and pointing a finger to find out what to read. It is systematically going through the word.

I do, however, just read the passage as it is and look for something unusual or jumping out that I missed at other times. Nothing magical or even mystical, just something that takes me away from my academic world. I find value in doing this. It may not be for everyone. Each of us must find our own way to stay tuned for God's will for our lives.

My quiet time is always at 5:AM...the house is quiet and I sit alone in my study for about 30 minutes.

To each his own,,,,,and yes, I do know what is biblical, but sometimes we also have to step out into the psyche, the mystical if you will. Do not allow cult practice to deny you from an experience in your walk with Christ.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Crabtownboy]

But God did not speak in "utter silence." He spoke in words! And this is not a directive - it's a narrative about God and a prophet. This is not how we are to hear God. We have the Bible.

That is your interpretation. I believe he spoke in utter silence. God can do that. He can implant his wisdom within us without speaking. Nothing is impossible for God. It is a shame the translaters changed the meaning to "still small voice," but I guess they believe that "utter silence" would be too hard to explain or understand.

1 Kings 19:12-14 (King James Version)

12And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

13And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?

Other translations use whisper.

But I do not see it as an issue to argue. The important truth is that God communicated with Elijah. The important truth is that God communicates with us. It is not important how ... but it is very important that God does communicate.

I find it a bit strange that all my life, as a Baptist, I have been told it is important to have a quiet time with God ... and yet it seems many on the board are afraid of a quiet time ... a time of listening of meditating. I find it strange that people are so afraid of a very good Christian word, but sadly a word that has long been neglected by Western Christians.

 

[Matt Black]

Yes, I do have problems with what I undestand to be lectio divina. I also realize it is not always taught the same way. But the way Richard Foster and some others are teaching it, it is not biblical at all. It's a mystical way to approach the Bible, and these people even say not to think when you're reading.

I wasn't referring to Foster; lectio predates him by many centuries!

Not as familiar with Ignation meditation, though some of what I read of it sounded okay. But not the part about visualizing Jesus (is that a regular part of it?).

Ignatian meditation (as laid out in his Spiritual Exercises) encourages the reader to imagine him/herself as a participant in the narrative - usually from a Gospel reading (some wag I know referred to it as "imagining yourself as one of the fish at the Feeding of the Five Thousand"!); this imagining is very much a means to an end, the end being interaction with Jesus in the passage.

The bottom line is: We do not need techniques to pray.

Hmmm....then why didn't Jesus answer His disciples with that when they asked Him, "Lord, teach us to pray?"

And we hear God through His word.

Yes, but how?

Glad you have reservations about Thomas Merton. He wanted to start a buddhist meditation center in the U.S.! Imagine that! Why would a Christian want to do that? Well, Merton was in love with Buddhism.

There's also the small matter that he may well have committed suicide.

 

[Matt Black]

I have to say I do not think this is a good or valid way to read the Bible. It's very subjective and mystical. Words mean something - we don't need to let something "leap out at us" to discover what God is saying.

Sorry, but how is this different from how most evangelicals read the Bible in their quiet times? If I had a £ for everytime I've heard someone say "I was reading my Bible this morning and God really spoke to me - the words just leaped off the page and hit me", or words to that effect, I'd have been able to retire by now!

The way to read the Bible is to read it for what it meant to the audience at the time, to read it in context, to compare it to other scripture it relates to, and then you decide how to apply it to your life.

That sounds more to me like Bible study rather than personal devotions. I'm not saying we shouldn't do that - clearly we should - but it's not an 'either/or' situation: lectio is not a substitute for sound Biblical scholarship or vice versa; rather, the two should complement each other.

I also realize that this happens without lectio divina.

Frequently - see above. But is that such a bad thing? Of it's very nature, personal devotional Bible reading is going to be personal and subjective - that's kind of the point, since we are all subjective persons and we have to apply God's Word to our lives personally. This personal reading, as I have said above, needs to be balanced with more rigorous and theology-based Biblical scholarship, both individually through study notes and commentaries and also corporately through studying Scripture in homegroup, listening to sermons etc. I'm wary of using the terms rhema and logos, but there is an element of that here, I think.

 

[donnA]

Do not allow cult practice to deny you from an experience in your walk with Christ.

shouldn't that expereince be biblical? otherwise theres no problem with the likes of Benny Hinn.

Hmmm....then why didn't Jesus answer His disciples with that when they asked Him, "Lord, teach us to pray?"

He didn't tell them to meditate and empty their minds and commune with themselves as 'god'. which is what medication is.
Some people seem to have difficulty distinguishing between meditating on scripture and emptying of self new age meditation.

 

[Matt Black]

He didn't tell them to meditate and empty their minds and commune with themselves as 'god'. which is what medication is.

Er...I don't think anyone here is advocating that.

Some people seem to have difficulty distinguishing between meditating on scripture and emptying of self new age meditation.

Yes, some people do, but no-one thus far on this thread.

 

[Marcia]

That is your interpretation. I believe he spoke in utter silence. God can do that. He can implant his wisdom within us without speaking. Nothing is impossible for God. It is a shame the translaters changed the meaning to "still small voice," but I guess they believe that "utter silence" would be too hard to explain or understand.

But the Hebrew does not mean "a still, small voice," and the text does not say it was God speaking. It was a sound that got Elijah's attention - whatever it was - this was a unique case. And nowhere are we told to listen for God this way.

Other translations use whisper.

But I do not see it as an issue to argue. The important truth is that God communicated with Elijah. The important truth is that God communicates with us. It is not important how ... but it is very important that God does communicate

.

Yes, he does, primarily through His word.

I find it a bit strange that all my life, as a Baptist, I have been told it is important to have a quiet time with God ... and yet it seems many on the board are afraid of a quiet time ... a time of listening of meditating. I find it strange that people are so afraid of a very good Christian word, but sadly a word that has long been neglected by Western Christians

This is not about a quiet time or even being silent. It's about techniques being taught that involve breathing techniques/exercises, sometimes visualization, techinques to take you into a no-thinking state (altered consciousness), and believing that everyone can "hear" God within. These techniques undermine God's word, which is after all, the precious word that God gave to us.

Keating and others teach that one needs to go beyond the mind and into a no-thinking state. Keating even says that if you think about God, you can't pray.

 

[Marcia]

I believe there is value to remaining silent in a contemplative mood during one's quiet time. I have done it all my life, and I am certainly not New Age by a stretch. I read a portion of scripture, following a routine, and not just flopping the Bible down and pointing a finger to find out what to read. It is systematically going through the word.

I do, however, just read the passage as it is and look for something unusual or jumping out that I missed at other times. Nothing magical or even mystical, just something that takes me away from my academic world. I find value in doing this. It may not be for everyone. Each of us must find our own way to stay tuned for God's will for our lives.

My quiet time is always at 5:AM...the house is quiet and I sit alone in my study for about 30 minutes.

To each his own,,,,,and yes, I do know what is biblical, but sometimes we also have to step out into the psyche, the mystical if you will. Do not allow cult practice to deny you from an experience in your walk with Christ.

Cheers,

Jim

This is not about quiet time - I want to make that clear. If you would read my article that I posted a link to, it would explain it.

It's fine to have an experience but I don't think it's good to do techniques to evoke an experience. An experience should arise naturally from normal prayer, bible reading/study, thinking about God, etc. That is different from doing something to get an experience.

 

[Marcia]

Sorry, but how is this different from how most evangelicals read the Bible in their quiet times? If I had a £ for everytime I've heard someone say "I was reading my Bible this morning and God really spoke to me - the words just leaped off the page and hit me", or words to that effect, I'd have been able to retire by now!

But just because some people do that, doesn't mean it's a good way to read the Bible. On the other hand, I do think while reading the Bible in the normative fashion - you know, reading - God does speak to us through His word. But it is consistent with what you are reading, not out of context.

That sounds more to me like Bible study rather than personal devotions. I'm not saying we shouldn't do that - clearly we should - but it's not an 'either/or' situation: lectio is not a substitute for sound Biblical scholarship or vice versa; rather, the two should complement each other.
Frequently - see above. But is that such a bad thing? Of it's very nature, personal devotional Bible reading is going to be personal and subjective - that's kind of the point, since we are all subjective persons and we have to apply God's Word to our lives personally. This personal reading, as I have said above, needs to be balanced with more rigorous and theology-based Biblical scholarship, both individually through study notes and commentaries and also corporately through studying Scripture in homegroup, listening to sermons etc. I'm wary of using the terms rhema and logos, but there is an element of that here, I think

I agree with most of what you say, Matt. Except that making Bible reading personal and subjective should be out of reading it for what it says. This is not what Lectio Divina always does, based on what I've read people say about it. It's as though there is a mystical message just for you in one or two words - that is totally nonsensical. The Bible is not a mystical book, thank God (and I mean that literally).

Also, I am skeptical of techniques taught by men when God gave us a book to read and learn and know. It should not be a tool to evoke experiences, which is how some of these teachers are teaching it. Evoking experiences is a pagan technique; it's what most pagan religions are all about.