Martial Arts

[Brother Bob]

I prefer ching chang.


(The sound of the slide of an 1911 A1 Colt 45)

That will work too, make anyone say "lets quit"........

BBob,

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Maybe my experience isn't comon and I'm not trying to convict anyone. Honestly I enjoyed the art form tremendously. It's when we got into the "philosophy" of it that there was IN YO (spelling? sorry) and that we should experience both to its full extent and that there really isn't evil in the way we understand it but application. I had to stop.

From my understanding which is limited is that all oriental martial art forms originated in China (though I have a friend who insist that the spartans created the form) from their budhistic temples and villages and spread from there to Korea, and Japan etc... But maybe this is chinese propoganda. I honestly am not informed enough to know. So yes there I believe there is a spiritual element.

ON the other hand Martial Arts could be just that. Preparation for war. Okinowan Karate (open hand) was training in war far in a society that believed strongly in Budho (spelling) the way. Or the very right way of doing things. Many samurai were cruel and exacted taxes and food on people who could not afford it. They could not retailiate since they were not permitted to own weapons in fear of uprising so they learned a martial method using comon farm implements against their oppresors. With Karate they developed forms because they weren't allowed to openly practice fighting but allowed to dance so they developed kata's in a dance to hide the fact they were preparing for war. Also japanese make a ceremony of everything because that is how they prefer to teach and learn. Ninjistu was opposed to many of these consepts and was in a sence against the system especially in the Koga and Iga regions of Japan and they had to use gurrilla war like methods including espionage and sabotage. Unfortunately a lot of Ronin took their consepts and fostered a ignorance considering the Ninja families (which took the chinese sign for endurance). However, these families fostered a lot of the misinformation thus a strange mythology spread about them. I got off track basically the united states has a Martial form that relies heavily on the firearm. and the American Natives had their martial form. so in the end all martial forms are preparation for war. Is this a spiritual thing?

 

[John of Japan]

Maybe my experience isn't comon and I'm not trying to convict anyone. Honestly I enjoyed the art form tremendously. It's when we got into the "philosophy" of it that there was IN YO (spelling? sorry) and that we should experience both to its full extent and that there really isn't evil in the way we understand it but application. I had to stop.

From my understanding which is limited is that all oriental martial art forms originated in China (though I have a friend who insist that the spartans created the form) from their budhistic temples and villages and spread from there to Korea, and Japan etc... But maybe this is chinese propoganda. I honestly am not informed enough to know. So yes there I believe there is a spiritual element.

This is a good time for me to debunk the myth that all martial arts started in a Buddhist temple. The temple in question is the Shaolin ("Small Forest") Temple of Hunan Province, which itself has fostered the myth in recent years because it makes lots of money that way. And what they practice now is not a true martial art, but a showy form authorized by the Chinese governement, designed for dance-type competitions.

The myth says that Bodhidharma (Daruma in Japanese) was a Buddhist monk from India who saw that the monks at the Shaolin were soft and flabby, so he taught them his martial art. The truth is that what Bodhidharma taught was a simple set of breathing exercises called the I Chin Ching, or "Muscle Change Classic." There are several versions extant, but as any real fighter can see the movements have no combat application. They are exercise, not martial art. In reality, true Buddhist teachings are non-violent, so any Buddhist who follows the true teachings of "the Buddha" will not practice a martial art.

The Shaolin Temple did become a center of martial training when the Manchus took over China, defeating the Mings. What really happened is that Ming rebels took refuge in the Hunan Shaolin Temple and disguised themselves as monks. The Manchu authorities burned down the temple, but some rebels escaped to a second Shaolin Temple in Fukien Province.

The truth is that there were many different martial arts in China for centuries before the Shaolin temple, there were many different martial arts all around China during its heyday, and there are many now as well as then which have nothing to do with Buddhism. These martial arts were used in war, self-defense, body-guarding, etc., for thousands of years in China, just as David's mighty men used their martial art in OT times to defeat God's enemies!

ON the other hand Martial Arts could be just that. Preparation for war. Okinowan Karate (open hand) was training in war far in a society that believed strongly in Budho (spelling) the way. Or the very right way of doing things. Many samurai were cruel and exacted taxes and food on people who could not afford it. They could not retailiate since they were not permitted to own weapons in fear of uprising so they learned a martial method using comon farm implements against their oppresors. With Karate they developed forms because they weren't allowed to openly practice fighting but allowed to dance so they developed kata's in a dance to hide the fact they were preparing for war. Also japanese make a ceremony of everything because that is how they prefer to teach and learn. Ninjistu was opposed to many of these consepts and was in a sence against the system especially in the Koga and Iga regions of Japan and they had to use gurrilla war like methods including espionage and sabotage. Unfortunately a lot of Ronin took their consepts and fostered a ignorance considering the Ninja families (which took the chinese sign for endurance). However, these families fostered a lot of the misinformation thus a strange mythology spread about them. I got off track basically the united states has a Martial form that relies heavily on the firearm. and the American Natives had their martial form. so in the end all martial forms are preparation for war. Is this a spiritual thing?

I believe it is a spiritual activity to defend your family and weak and helpless people. That's why we have troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. That's why if I see a mugger beating up a little old lady I'll defend her! That's why if someone comes into my home and attacks my family I will fight to the death!

Note the following Scriptures about self-defense in the Bible. My pamphlet, "Christian Philosophy of Self Defense," has many more.

"Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight" (Ps. 144:1).

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence" (John 18:36).

"11 If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; 12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?" (Prov. 24:11-12).

 

[Awarren]

Most Karate etc Vastly overated as Self defense

I ran a boxing Gym and hav 1 son who is a professional and another who is pro MMA,

My experience is that 3rd degree black belts come into a boxing ring and get CRUSHED. Not because they aren't tough guys but that they really have not been trained to throw a punch properly. kinda like the old fashion set shot in basketball, yea it can go in when your by yourself but not in a game when someone is defending you.

Further that incrediable strength stuff "hold a man down with just a little finger" is foolish to say the least.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Here is a thought. You do realize that the primary reason God destroyed the world in a flood was because of violence?

 

[ShotGunWillie]

Here is a thought. You do realize that the primary reason God destroyed the world in a flood was because of violence?

I don't get it

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I don't get it

Well Shotgunwillie I dont suppose you do with a title like that. You don't shoot from the hip do you?

Anyway God seems to discurage violence. With such passion he wipe out the antideluvians. I'm not saying we should not defend ourselves but should be be constantly thinking and working on how to bring violence to others? Just a thought. Spiritually you are what you eat.

I hold to the 3 G's btw. God, Guns, and Get of my property :laugh:

 

[ShotGunWillie]

I had a dog named Willie, not a big fan of guns, they kill people and junk like that.

 

[John of Japan]

Here is a thought. You do realize that the primary reason God destroyed the world in a flood was because of violence?

Sorry, wrong. Look again. In Gen. 6:5 it says, "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Then in 6:11 and 13 it talks about the violence. The point is that "violence" alone is not evil. It is the violence of people whose thoughts were continually evil that caused God to destroy the earth. And how did God destroy the earth? With a violent flood. So if you say that violence per se is evil, then you are making God himself out to be evil.

If you say it is wrong to think of violence and how it should be done, then you are saying that all military men are wrong. However, the Bible teaches that not only did God promise to help and did help His people Israel in war, but He commanded them to make war! In fact, the Bible says in Exodus 15:3, "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name."

The idea that violence is always evil is a secular idea, not a Biblical idea. Violence can actually be righteous is it is for God. If I am defending a Christian lady from evil men who want to rape and kille her, that is righteous. Therefore when I teach people to defend themselves and others, that is a good thing.

 

[John of Japan]

I ran a boxing Gym and hav 1 son who is a professional and another who is pro MMA,

My experience is that 3rd degree black belts come into a boxing ring and get CRUSHED. Not because they aren't tough guys but that they really have not been trained to throw a punch properly. kinda like the old fashion set shot in basketball, yea it can go in when your by yourself but not in a game when someone is defending you.

Further that incrediable strength stuff "hold a man down with just a little finger" is foolish to say the least.

Hi, Awarren. Welcome to the BB! :wavey:

There are a lot of variables here. Is the 3rd degree black belt allowed to kick in the boxing ring, or not? Has the black belt ever done full contact fighting before or not? Is the boxer a pro who can train full time and the black belt an amateur who only trains a few hours a week?

Boxing is a solid way to get some self defense skills, but every time I've seen a pro boxer try the kick-boxing ring with no previous experience against a kicker, he loses. Learning how to defend against kicks is a new skill for boxers, especially if leg kicks are allowed like on the Japanese K1 circuit.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Sorry, wrong. Look again. In Gen. 6:5 it says, "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Then in 6:11 and 13 it talks about the violence. The point is that "violence" alone is not evil. It is the violence of people whose thoughts were continually evil that caused God to destroy the earth. And how did God destroy the earth? With a violent flood. So if you say that violence per se is evil, then you are making God himself out to be evil.

If you say it is wrong to think of violence and how it should be done, then you are saying that all military men are wrong. However, the Bible teaches that not only did God promise to help and did help His people Israel in war, but He commanded them to make war! In fact, the Bible says in Exodus 15:3, "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name."

The idea that violence is always evil is a secular idea, not a Biblical idea. Violence can actually be righteous is it is for God. If I am defending a Christian lady from evil men who want to rape and kille her, that is righteous. Therefore when I teach people to defend themselves and others, that is a good thing.

Wow John you sound testy! I served in the military during two engagements Panama and Desert Storm. I have no problem with defence. I'm just wondering if it should occupy our time all the time. I know when I was in Ninjutsu it did.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Hi, Awarren. Welcome to the BB! :wavey:

There are a lot of variables here. Is the 3rd degree black belt allowed to kick in the boxing ring, or not? Has the black belt ever done full contact fighting before or not? Is the boxer a pro who can train full time and the black belt an amateur who only trains a few hours a week?

Boxing is a solid way to get some self defense skills, but every time I've seen a pro boxer try the kick-boxing ring with no previous experience against a kicker, he loses. Learning how to defend against kicks is a new skill for boxers, especially if leg kicks are allowed like on the Japanese K1 circuit.

You're getting close to the fatal Chineese movie error. "My school is better than your school! My Master is better than Your Master!" :laugh:

But this seems a serious issue to you so I will stop teasing.

 

[John of Japan]

Wow John you sound testy! I served in the military during two engagements Panama and Desert Storm. I have no problem with defence. I'm just wondering if it should occupy our time all the time. I know when I was in Ninjutsu it did.

Sorry, I don't mean to be testy. But I've heard so much ignorance over the years on this subject from Christians, so many knee-jerk reactions! And thank you for your service for our country in Panama and Desert storm. I highly appreciate the US military.

As far as it goes, I agree that a Christian martial artist shouldn't let his art occupy all of this time and thinking. There is a lot more to life and serving the Lord, amen?

 

[John of Japan]

You're getting close to the fatal Chineese movie error. "My school is better than your school! My Master is better than Your Master!" :laugh:

But this seems a serious issue to you so I will stop teasing.

Naw, if it had been "My master is better than your master," I'd have said, "Oh, yeah? Boxing is nothing compared to kung fu!" But unfortunately, traditional kung fu dudes don't do well in professional fighting until they train outside their own art and pick up some new skills. :BangHead:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Sorry, I don't mean to be testy. But I've heard so much ignorance over the years on this subject from Christians, so many knee-jerk reactions! And thank you for your service for our country in Panama and Desert storm. I highly appreciate the US military.

As far as it goes, I agree that a Christian martial artist shouldn't let his art occupy all of this time and thinking. There is a lot more to life and serving the Lord, amen?

Amen. I have to say it again it won't let me post one word. Amen.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

BTW I would like to put in a word about a missionary organization to the military that helped me through some difficult times. If not for the Oversees Christian Servicemens Center I would have seriously backslide. I met Jessy Miller and I suggest you read his book if you can find it. Very encouraging for those now servings on this site.

 

[John of Japan]

BTW I would like to put in a word about a missionary organization to the military that helped me through some difficult times. If not for the Oversees Christian Servicemens Center I would have seriously backslide. I met Jessy Miller and I suggest you read his book if you can find it. Very encouraging for those now servings on this site.

What's the name of the book?

We have a church for the US military in Japan that supports us, and they helped us through a very rough time back in the 1990's. The dollar was very weak then, and we barely had enough money to pay the bills. Several times they gave us food showers and were a great blessing that way--all that good, fattening American food!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What's the name of the book?

We have a church for the US military in Japan that supports us, and they helped us through a very rough time back in the 1990's. The dollar was very weak then, and we barely had enough money to pay the bills. Several times they gave us food showers and were a great blessing that way--all that good, fattening American food!

A prisoner of hope. He was in the army air corps during WWII and was captured in the Philipenes. He walked the Bataan Death March and spent the rest of the War in digging Coal for Japan near Nagasaki.

 

[John of Japan]

A prisoner of hope. He was in the army air corps during WWII and was captured in the Philipenes. He walked the Bataan Death March and spent the rest of the War in digging Coal for Japan near Nagasaki.

Sounds like a great read. I'll keep my eyes open for it.

 

[Marcia]

I'll agree with this. The one-finger thingy is a manipulation trick that depends on the psychological belief of the student. It doesn't usually work on non-students of the "master," unless they are particularly gullible.

The chi-kung "push without touching" is more of the same. I once saw this done on Japanese TV, and the "master" could push his students at will, but could push none of the non-students on the show.

I have an appendix in my book on my website that debunks many of these fake chi/ki stunts: http://www.johnofjapan.org/pdf/strength_in_the_inner_man.pdf There are also a couple of good books on this kind of chi/ki manipulation by Dr. Leung Ting: Behind the Incredibles and Skills of the Vagabonds. Marcia, I highly recommend these books to you, since they expose a lot of the tricks used by travelling Taoist magicians in China that claim to be using chi/ki. Dr. Ting is a Wing Chun Gung Fu teacher based in Hong Kong who graduated from a Baptist college--though I don't know if he is a faithful Baptist nowadays.

Another appendix gives a discussion of chi/ki, especially from a linguists' view.

Thanks, John. While I agree there are tricks to many of these kind of things, that does not mean there is not something really evil in some uses of chi. It's the same with psychics or mediums - some might be fake but many are in touch with demons, which they call their spirit guides.

I had too much experience with chi and kundalini that was scary - it was very real. And I deal with the fallout some have now who were involved in Eastern practices that involved chi or kundalini or whatever one might call this occult "energy." I believe it is something demonic and real, though I am not claiming it actually gives power. It does give a feeling of power and messes with your mind as well. It also gives physical sensations.