Martial Arts

[John of Japan]

Thanks, John. While I agree there are tricks to many of these kind of things, that does not mean there is not something really evil in some uses of chi. It's the same with psychics or mediums - some might be fake but many are in touch with demons, which they call their spirit guides.

I had too much experience with chi and kundalini that was scary - it was very real. And I deal with the fallout some have now who were involved in Eastern practices that involved chi or kundalini or whatever one might call this occult "energy." I believe it is something demonic and real, though I am not claiming it actually gives power. It does give a feeling of power and messes with your mind as well. It also gives physical sensations.

I agree, there can be demonism involved. And I oppose the Taoist interpretation of chi/ki, a Chinese character which actually basically just means breath, as I prove in Appendix 2 in my document on my website. I also show there that there are Chinese martial arts teachers who don't believe in the Taoist meaning.

Concerning demon possession in the martial arts, it is possible, but not common. Here is what I wrote on that in the document on my website, "Strength in the Inner Man" (p. 13):

"I hesitate to write this, but famed founder of Aikido Morihei Ueshiba may have gained some of his incredible power through demonic means. Aikido is a beautiful and fascinating martial art, practiced with integrity by many Christian martial artists, but all admit that Ueshiba could do amazing feats which have never been duplicated by his followers. It is significant that Ueshiba was an adherent of a Buddhist cult called 'Shingon.' According to John Stevens, 'He (Ueshiba) also gained experience in Shingon visualization techniques in which one mentally conjures up a deity and then attempts to merge with the image.' ([FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman PS]Three Budo Masters[/FONT], p. 93) Again, after a special fire-walking ceremony, when he received a Shingo 'Seal of Attainment' certificate, something happened to Ueshiba. 'This triggered the first of a long series of mystical experiences for Ueshiba–"I felt as if a guardian deity had settled in the core of my being."' (Stevens, p. 96)

"Later Ueshiba joined another cult called 'Omotokyo,' and had a great experience of enlightenment. 'Following this earth-shattering transformation, Ueshiba began to manifest incredible powers: he could displace enormous boulders, leap unbelievable distances, and dispose of any kind of attack–anywhere, anytime.' (Stevens, p. 112) It is unfortunate that Ueshiba, an extremely gifted martial artist, was so spiritually deceived.

"A similar case is that of So Doshin, the founder of Nippon Shorinji Kenpo. In one account I read, he claimed to have been possessed by the spirit of Tamo (in Japanese, Daruma, the founder of Zen Buddhism) while staying overnight in the Honan Shaolin Temple in China. Supposedly, Daruma told him to teach kenpo in Japan as a religion rather than a martial art, thus circumventing the Allied Occupation’s rules against teaching the martial arts right after World War II.

"Christian martial artists must be extremely careful here. The Christian martial artist should consider the relationship between his body, soul and spirit. He should ask himself in the middle of his training, 'Is this energy soulical or spiritual or physical?' The internal energy of the Christian martial artist must come through the working of the Holy Spirit. Asian religions and philosophies are very dangerous spiritually. As ninjutsu expert Robert Bussey says, 'today I see top ninjutsu teachers and martial artists practicing all kinds of spiritually destructive skills. The martial arts is their religion, their God. Until they accept Jesus Christ into their lives, they are lost.' ('Martial Arts in the Name of God?' by James William Holzer, p. 72)"

 

[Marcia]

John, thanks for your further thoughts. Your comments support my concerns on the use of chi. Chi as taught and practiced in the New Age and the occult is the Taoist variety, which is why I was so adamant in my posts on this. I have no doubts as to its source and dangers.

I have been emailing with a young man the past week who first called himself a Christian and then started telling me how he was using chi in a supernatural way, claiming this was a gift from the Holy Spirit. He is arguing with me about it. This kind of email exchange is typical for me -- actually, this young man admits he's into occult beliefs but is trying to claim it is compatible with Christianity. This syncretization of the occult and New Age with Christianity is something that I am seeing on the rise.

 

[John of Japan]

John, thanks for your further thoughts. Your comments support my concerns on the use of chi. Chi as taught and practiced in the New Age and the occult is the Taoist variety, which is why I was so adamant in my posts on this. I have no doubts as to its source and dangers.

I have been emailing with a young man the past week who first called himself a Christian and then started telling me how he was using chi in a supernatural way, claiming this was a gift from the Holy Spirit. He is arguing with me about it. This kind of email exchange is typical for me -- actually, this young man admits he's into occult beliefs but is trying to claim it is compatible with Christianity. This syncretization of the occult and New Age with Christianity is something that I am seeing on the rise.

That's very sad. And this is why I am a Baptist, and believe in the Bible as the sole rule of faith and practice. If we are not careful we will let the thinking of lost people enter our belief system.

May the Lord give you wisdom and strength to help this young man.

 

[thomas15]

Allen,

I agree with what you are saying in post #18. I don't have as much MA as you but I took TKD for 5 years and hold a 1st Dan rank. My instructor is a 6 Dan and his instructor is a GM from Korea. Yes there was some talk about the history of the art (mostly when talking about the forms and what they symbolize). Never though did we meditate, nor was there a shrine on site.

When I moved to a different state, I briefly studied with a Korean GM and his son who is very well known in international competitive circles. No shrine there either but the GM wanted to see some meditation time.

I have been out of TKD for about 5 years now and really miss it. If I ever get back into it I will start back at the 9th gup as rank isn't that important to me, style and technique is. However, I would stay away from anything that isn't 100% secular.

 

[Allan]

Allen,

I agree with what you are saying in post #18. I don't have as much MA as you but I took TKD for 5 years and hold a 1st Dan rank. My instructor is a 6 Dan and his instructor is a GM from Korea. Yes there was some talk about the history of the art (mostly when talking about the forms and what they symbolize). Never though did we meditate, nor was there a shrine on site.

When I moved to a different state, I briefly studied with a Korean GM and his son who is very well known in international competitive circles. No shrine there either but the GM wanted to see some meditation time.

I have been out of TKD for about 5 years now and really miss it. If I ever get back into it I will start back at the 9th gup as rank isn't that important to me, style and technique is. However, I would stay away from anything that isn't 100% secular.

Hello Thomas,

I'm not sure what you are refer to with 'shrines' as I was not speaking about that. I was talking about the teachings of spiritual aspects along with the art itself, not that the art itself was a religion.

I would love to get back into it but I can not anymore. I was hit head-on by a drunk driver back in 95 which lead to my inability to continue training. I hope you do get to continue if you find the opportunity. God bless you in your endevors.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Marcia and others,

Thanks for this thread. My oldest son (8) has been asking to learn Karate. He says he wants to be a ninja. hahaha. We spent some time learning what ninjitsu is and various forms of martial arts. I also prayed about this and had zero peace about putting him into Karate classes or other martial arts.

This thread helped confirm that this is something we shoud direct our children away from.

RB

 

[John of Japan]

Marcia and others,

Thanks for this thread. My oldest son (8) has been asking to learn Karate. He says he wants to be a ninja. hahaha. We spent some time learning what ninjitsu is and various forms of martial arts. I also prayed about this and had zero peace about putting him into Karate classes or other martial arts.

This thread helped confirm that this is something we shoud direct our children away from.

RB

RB, I urge you not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Just because a martial art has its origin in Asia doesn't mean it will teach Asian religion. There are many good Christian instructors and others who include absolutely no Asian thinking in their teaching. Many martial arts have been completely Americanized. A punch is a punch is a punch, whether a boxer or karate man does it, whether a Japanese or American does it. Religion is only what the practitioner brings in his heart to the teaching.

The martial arts can be valuable in teaching self-confidence to children (as opposed to self-esteem, which I don't believe in), self-defense, respect for authority, etc. Check out any school you might send your son to by watching a few classes so you can see how the instructor relates to the children. Ask the instructor pointed questions about his philosophy and methods. You might even want to take lessons with your son as a way to have father-son fellowship, and also to keep track of what he is learning.

I taught my son my martial art as he was growing up, and he is now a 3rd degree black belt. It was a wonderful way for us to fellowship as father and son. His martial art was especially useful for him to make friends, overcome culture shock and have a useful skill when he started college in America after growing up in Japan. He eventually started a martial arts evangelistic team (youth rallies, etc.) at his college and was used of the Lord in that way. He is now working on his Ph. D. at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, faithful in church, serving the Lord and wanting to teach in a Christian college.

 

[Awarren]

John in Japan

I referred to Karate not Kickboxing.

In my mind a 3rd dregree Balack Belt is just that.

In the case I spoke of the 3rd degree had actually represented the US in the Pan Am Games.

The UFC is a good barometer when a fighter has all the choices he either Strikes in a Boxing type stlye and technique(except he's more sqaured up) kicks occaionally, or submits via Brazilien Jujitsu. Also Ground & Pound. Never will you see a Karate stlye board breaking punch. 90% of techniques in UFC are Boxing, kick Boxing, Wrestling/Jujitsu. NO KARATE ETC

Compared to Boxing/Kickboxing/ Jujitsu Karate is an overated defense system.

Otherwise people would actually use it in the ring/Octagon.

The Vast Vast majority of people who take Karate have never actually fought anyone using it. In a boxing Gym or MMA gym when guys spar its a war.

 

[John of Japan]

John in Japan

I referred to Karate not Kickboxing.

In my mind a 3rd dregree Balack Belt is just that.

In the case I spoke of the 3rd degree had actually represented the US in the Pan Am Games.

The UFC is a good barometer when a fighter has all the choices he either Strikes in a Boxing type stlye and technique(except he's more sqaured up) kicks occaionally, or submits via Brazilien Jujitsu. Also Ground & Pound. Never will you see a Karate stlye board breaking punch. 90% of techniques in UFC are Boxing, kick Boxing, Wrestling/Jujitsu. NO KARATE ETC

Compared to Boxing/Kickboxing/ Jujitsu Karate is an overated defense system.

Otherwise people would actually use it in the ring/Octagon.

The Vast Vast majority of people who take Karate have never actually fought anyone using it. In a boxing Gym or MMA gym when guys spar its a war.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree to an extent, but I think you are over-generalizing. There are quite a few styles of karate that do full contact. Kyokushinkai is just one. Again, here in Japan the Seidokaikan people go right into K1 kick-boxing without much adjustment. In fact, as I said earlier on this thread, modern American kick-boxing began with the pro-karate circuit in the US in the 1970's.

And I'm led to ask again, was the karate guy allowed to use his kicks against the boxer? That makes a lot of difference. Are you familiar with the Muhammed Ali vs. Antonio Inoki fight in Tokyo in 1976? The Ali side was so afraid of Inoki's kicks that they forbade him to use standing kicks. (And yes, I know Inoki was not a karate guy, but the point still stands.)

 

[Awarren]

No John Since it was a USA Boxing Gym no kicks were allowed. The Boxer was only 14 years old, the Karate Guy was mid 20's.

I would have expect the Karate guy to be able to fight better, no head movement legs locked in place, telegraphed punches etc etc the biggest thing though was the stunned look when he got hit.

In my experience it takes along time for a Karate guy to "unlearn" all the bad habits that convential US type Karate teaches them. The Spirituality side doesn't seem to count for anything. Again this is from my experience only .

 

[John of Japan]

No John Since it was a USA Boxing Gym no kicks were allowed. The Boxer was only 14 years old, the Karate Guy was mid 20's.

I would have expect the Karate guy to be able to fight better, no head movement legs locked in place, telegraphed punches etc etc the biggest thing though was the stunned look when he got hit.

Thanks for full disclosure! :thumbs: In the interest of full disclosure on my side, boxing has had a great influence on the martial arts scene. According to Robert Smith and Donn Draeger, the head punches of boxing inflenced kung fu in the early part of the 20th century (Asian Fighting Arts, p. 19). Also, I've seen wild and wooly full contact karate tourneys here in Japan with obvious boxing influence in the hands. I myself teach boxing punches to my kung fu students, though we don't go full power.

Again, boxing techniques were very influential in the pro karate full contact circuit of the 1970's that birthed modern kick boxing. There was a tournament in California to establish the champions, then the first title defense took place in Atlanta in 1975, with Bill Wallace keeping his title against Joe Corley. The "word on the street" was that Wallace trained with a boxer. You can see the boxing-type gloves if you check out the picture at: http://karate-in-english-lewis-wallace.blogspot.com/2008/04/tournaments-and-promoters.html

In my experience it takes along time for a Karate guy to "unlearn" all the bad habits that convential US type Karate teaches them. The Spirituality side doesn't seem to count for anything. Again this is from my experience only .

Back to the karate guy, to me it is apples and oranges to compare karate and boxing. They are different arts with different purposes. Boxing is a sport with points and limited techniques. For example, boxing rules against hitting with the back of the fist would prohibit your karate guy from using his backfist--one of the most potent karate hand techniques. At Mike Crain's 1974 kung fu/karate tourney in Chattanooga, I saw Joe Corley (tae kwon do) knock out his opponent and break his cheekbone with a backfist.

Your account suggests to me a karate guy fighting like a fish out of water, not allowed to use his best techniques, wearing heavy gloves he is not used to. If he was tae kwon do, his kicks were 60-80% of his arsenal. TKD is known among karate people as "good feet, lousy hands." Surely you will agree that it is not a fair assessment of karate in general to put one karate guy in the ring with a boxer (even a 14 year old if he is competent and a big kid with power) without his best techniques! And there are literally hundreds of styles of karate, each with their own mix of techniques, some of them influenced highly by boxing. (Corley and Wallace are still very influential in the American karate scene.)

Again, while there is sport karate, most karate styles are for self-defense. Boxing doesn't teach a lot of the stuff most karate styles teach in self-defense training: grabbing, joint-locking, groin, eye and back shots. So, apples and oranges.

By the way, just for fun, thinking of cross-pollinating, MMA has a fascinating history. Ironically, as you know American MMA in the UFC was originally influenced by Brazilian jujutsu, based on a Japanese art. However, Japanese MMA (Pancrase, Kingdom, Pride, etc.) was originally influenced by American traditional catch-as-catch-can wrestling as taught by Karl Gotch and Lou Thesz to Japanese wrestlers such as Antonio Inoki and "Gracie Killer" Sakuraba. Go figure! :type:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Thanks for full disclosure! :thumbs: In the interest of full disclosure on my side, boxing has had a great influence on the martial arts scene. According to Robert Smith and Donn Draeger, the head punches of boxing inflenced kung fu in the early part of the 20th century (Asian Fighting Arts, p. 19). Also, I've seen wild and wooly full contact karate tourneys here in Japan with obvious boxing influence in the hands. I myself teach boxing punches to my kung fu students, though we don't go full power.

Again, boxing techniques were very influential in the pro karate full contact circuit of the 1970's that birthed modern kick boxing. There was a tournament in California to establish the champions, then the first title defense took place in Atlanta in 1975, with Bill Wallace keeping his title against Joe Corley. The "word on the street" was that Wallace trained with a boxer. You can see the boxing-type gloves if you check out the picture at: http://karate-in-english-lewis-wallace.blogspot.com/2008/04/tournaments-and-promoters.html

Back to the karate guy, to me it is apples and oranges to compare karate and boxing. They are different arts with different purposes. Boxing is a sport with points and limited techniques. For example, boxing rules against hitting with the back of the fist would prohibit your karate guy from using his backfist--one of the most potent karate hand techniques. At Mike Crain's 1974 kung fu/karate tourney in Chattanooga, I saw Joe Corley (tae kwon do) knock out his opponent and break his cheekbone with a backfist.

Your account suggests to me a karate guy fighting like a fish out of water, not allowed to use his best techniques, wearing heavy gloves he is not used to. If he was tae kwon do, his kicks were 60-80% of his arsenal. TKD is known among karate people as "good feet, lousy hands." Surely you will agree that it is not a fair assessment of karate in general to put one karate guy in the ring with a boxer (even a 14 year old if he is competent and a big kid with power) without his best techniques! And there are literally hundreds of styles of karate, each with their own mix of techniques, some of them influenced highly by boxing. (Corley and Wallace are still very influential in the American karate scene.)

Again, while there is sport karate, most karate styles are for self-defense. Boxing doesn't teach a lot of the stuff most karate styles teach in self-defense training: grabbing, joint-locking, groin, eye and back shots. So, apples and oranges.

By the way, just for fun, thinking of cross-pollinating, MMA has a fascinating history. Ironically, as you know American MMA in the UFC was originally influenced by Brazilian jujutsu, based on a Japanese art. However, Japanese MMA (Pancrase, Kingdom, Pride, etc.) was originally influenced by American traditional catch-as-catch-can wrestling as taught by Karl Gotch and Lou Thesz to Japanese wrestlers such as Antonio Inoki and "Gracie Killer" Sakuraba. Go figure! :type:

My master is better than your master. Octopus style is greater than your gaijin style. (you have to imagine my mouth not being in sinc with my words.) :laugh:

 

[John of Japan]

My master is better than your master. Octopus style is greater than your gaijin style. (you have to imagine my mouth not being in sinc with my words.) :laugh:

Hardy har har. :laugh:

Seriously, though, I've been defending karate which is not my style, though I'm cross-ranked 2nd black in karate. I'm basically a kung fu dude. And I try to teach my students respect for all martial arts. I believe that all things being equal (ability, weight, etc.), a one-on-one match all comes down to training instead of style: how long, what kind of, what cardio, etc. In other words, in a warrior it is not the style but the person who is important. A boxer who trains well and knows how to block kicks should beat a lazy karate guy--and a karate guy who has trained full contact should beat a lazy boxer.