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Matthew 23:13

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Jul 5, 2019.

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  1. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.”​

    Van states in multiple threads at innumerable times:
    Matthew 23:13 teaches some men were seeking God, in fact they were in the process of entering the kingdom. However, they were prevented by false teaching. These, then ended up not believing, or not fully believing. In any event, their faith was not credited as righteousness.”
    Because this is (imo) a continued and repeated error in which some may not be aware, it has become important that a response is given.

    This verse is one of series of verses in which condemnation statements are being given to the religious rulers by Christ. What obligations did these rulers perform?

    Of the many, one was control over the temple worship.

    This worship was the only proper access to God for resolution of sin and praise obliged by the Law. Without access, the people could not enter the presence of God nor what they considered His kingdom.

    It is the exclusion from the temple by the rulers the people feared. And, it is at this point the Christ was both stating such authority was wrong, and consequences were coming.

    The error is by trying to use this passage as some proof folks have self volition to seek entrance and be thwarted from entrance.

    First, people did not “seek” but were obliged by the law to worship in prescribed customs and ordinances. As the history witnesses, the folks often did not seek, were less than faithful, and found other places and gods more to their liking,

    Second, the authority to prevent was that which pertained to the physical aspects of sacrifices and offerings, not eternal consequences of determining eternal life.

    The Christ called these rulers in this particular verse “hypocrites,” but He did not call them liars. He did not call them “false teachers.”

    The “belief” was not addressed, nor the ability to believe.

    The “crediting for righteousness” was not an issue.

    Clearly, the selection of this verse, in a vain attempt to discredit, has been demonstrated as a failure.


    This thread is offered that the readers of the BB may be warned, and that we all examine the Scriptures for the validity and veracity of posts.
     
    #1 agedman, Jul 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
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  2. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    " But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
    14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
    15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."
    ( Matthew 23:13-15 )


    This is the way I see it, when I read the passage:

    The Lord is condemning the Pharisees for their false religion and for abusing their office of being the nation's pastors / leaders.
    They are supposed to present the truth to His people, Israel, and have failed.
    They are getting things wrong because they are simply not God's children ( in the heavenly sense ), by and large, themselves.
    Nicodemus was, but not any of the rest that I can see.

    This can be seen in John 8, where He tells them,

    " Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
    47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God."
    ( John 8:46-47 )


    So, in Matthew 23, Christ is condemning the Pharisees for trying to shut up the kingdom of Heaven to those that are saved, all the while thinking they are saved themselves.
    I don't see it as a matter of barring the Israelites from the Temple, but in the spiritual sense of being false teachers.
    In that role, they are attempting to bar the way to God's children's access to the truth...the word of God.
    Jesus told the Pharisees many things, and even went so far as to state that they were "spiritual" ( John 6:63 ).

    So, as I see it, He is rebuking them spiritually, and for spiritual failures.
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    In these efforts to nullify scripture, we see the old, you can ignore a sub-point of a passage, if the main point presents another truth. Twaddle

    They were entering, not getting ready to enter. Note the use of an altered text.

    NASB
    "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

    Next, it was suggested the scribes and Pharisees were not false teachers because Jesus did not use those exact words! Fiddlesticks. There were not presenting the truth, therefore by logical necessity, they were indeed false teachers.

    Pulpit Commentary
    "Ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων: before men; ante homines (Vulgate. This is the first woe - against perverse obstructiveness. They prevent men from accepting Christ, and so entering God's kingdom, by their false interpretation of Scripture, by not allowing that it testified of Christ, and by making the path impassable for the poor and ignorant."
     
  4. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    I would caution you. These are not efforts to nullify Scripture. These are efforts to rightly interpret Scripture. There is a difference.
     
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  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Reset:

    In these efforts to nullify scripture, we see the old, you can ignore a sub-point of a passage, if the main point presents another truth. Twaddle

    They were entering, not getting ready to enter. Note the use of an altered text.

    NASB
    "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

    Next, it was suggested the scribes and Pharisees were not false teachers because Jesus did not use those exact words! Fiddlesticks. There were not presenting the truth, therefore by logical necessity, they were indeed false teachers.

    Pulpit Commentary
    "Ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων: before men; ante homines (Vulgate. This is the first woe - against perverse obstructiveness. They prevent men from accepting Christ, and so entering God's kingdom, by their false interpretation of Scripture, by not allowing that it testified of Christ, and by making the path impassable for the poor and ignorant."
     
  6. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Member

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    I wonder what any of you are talking about. No criticism; just a curiosity. You have stated your stuff. Cool. Way to mess me up this morning.

    What, actually, is the specific 'controversy before the court'?
     
    #6 Alan Gross, Jul 6, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2019
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Matthew 23:13 indicates unsaved fallen unregenerate people were in the process of entering the kingdom of heaven. Thus "total spiritual inability" is bogus doctrine. And they could not have been compelled by "irresistible grace" because they were blocked.

    So what we have before the court are Calvinists explaining the verse does not say what it says.
     
  8. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Member

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    Gill: Matthew 23 Gill's Exposition, with my added comments placed in bold.

    The Bible and Jesus' Words were Stated and Recorded long before a man named 'Calvin'.
    ...
    Is there a premise being advanced to cause a controversy, where, "for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men" has an indication of "the kingdom of heaven", being Spoken of here by Jesus, could somehow mean, "eternal life"?

    The entrance into "eternal life" can neither be opened nor shut by men: those whom God determines to bring to "eternal life", shall have an entrance abundantly ministered to them, in spite of the opposition of men and devils;

    though these men did all that in them lay, to hinder persons enjoying everlasting glory.

    But by, "the kingdom of heaven', the Second Administration of The Eternal Covenant of Grace in The Gospel Era is here meant,

    "the kingdom of heaven', The Second Administration of The Eternal Covenant of Grace in The Gospel Era opened by the ministry of John the Baptist, Christ and his disciples,

    and which the Scribes and Pharisees did all they could to shut, i.e., The Advent of The Teaching Of Jesus and His Gospel; by discouraging the preaching of the Gospel, and the administration of ordinances,

    in which this Gospel Era lay; and prejudicing the minds of men against "the kingdom of heaven', The Second Administration of The Eternal Covenant of Grace in The Gospel Era,

    that those people might not embrace the doctrines of The Gospel, nor submit to its ordinances, of baptism and The Lord's Supper;

    The scribes and Pharisees, by their office, ought to have opened and explained the Scriptures,

    the prophecies of the Old Testament relating to the Messiah, and led the people into a knowledge of the mysteries of his kingdom,

    and encouraged them to enter into this new state of things, in The Gospel Era,

    which, according to the true intent of Scripture, was to take place, and in The Gospel Era, now did:

    but instead of this, they shut up the Scriptures,

    The scribes and Pharisees, took away the key of knowledge, and laid it aside; and darkened the Scriptures by their false glosses, and obliged the people to observe the traditions of the elders, and which they call , "an hedge for the law" (w); to which Beza thinks, the allusion is here, and by which men were shut up, and kept from the true knowledge both of law and Gospel:

    Gill: Matthew 23 Gill's Exposition, with my added comments placed in bold.
     
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  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    "The entrance into "eternal life" can neither be opened nor shut by men: those whom God determines to bring to "eternal life", shall have an entrance abundantly ministered to them, in spite of the opposition of men and devils;" This claim by Gill has no support in scripture, but the opposite, do not be turned aside by "another gospel" is found in passage after passage. Why stick to "the pure gospel" if a corruption has no detrimental effect? Why should we "not tolerate" false teachers is their bogus views have no effect.

    Matthew 23:13 demonstrates some lost people seek God and that their effort can be thwarted by false teachings. Thus both the "T" and the "I" of the tulip are shown to be bogus.
     
  10. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Member

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    "lost people seek" what?

    "ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men"

    I teach 250 or more "Doctrines of Grace", not compartmentalized into a compendium acronym of Tulip.:

    But, those 250 "Doctrines of Grace" are all, simply, systematized Teaches from what is called, "The Bible".

    I see the assault upon "Jesus is The Savior", now.

    You would like to imagine that "Total Depravity" is compromised, as well as, "Irresistible Grace", however, there has to be an alteration and variance to the text accomplished by the reasoning of a mind affected by the curse of the Fall of Adam that adds to and takes away, from what is called, "The Bible".

    Talk to an 18 year old, goofy.
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1) "lost people seek what?" The quote says lost people seek God!

    2) False teachers can prevent people from entry into Christ's kingdom.

    3) I address the doctrines found in published presentations of the TULIP.

    4) The TULI of the tulip have no support in "what is called the Bible."

    5) No one "assaulted" Jesus, so a change the subject strawman deflection.

    6) My view is that "Total Spiritual Inability" is bogus, because some people do seek God and put their trust in Christ.

    7) Jesus would not need to speak in parables (Matthew 13) nor God harden hearts (Romans 11) if the Fall caused "total spiritual inability."
     
  12. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    Exegete the passage. How does it show that non-elect were seeking God?

    Man they have more power than God? News to me...

    Based on what?
     
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  13. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Member

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    This post threw me because I had never considered what a scribe's or Pharisees' perspective and thoughts would be, in response to Jesus telling them,

    "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."

    Thank you, for your add.

    The procedure of abandoning the idea of Scripture Interprets Scripture and demanding that an 'interpretation' of the Words that are there, be ignored;

    and then, secondly, assigning new writing into God's Word, in place of words that are there are also brand new concepts for me to consider.

    1) "lost people seek what?" The quote says lost people seek God!

    The quote says lost people seek 'the kingdom of heaven'.

    The flesh is an active little thing.

    The procedure of abandoning the idea of Scripture Interprets Scripture and demanding that an 'interpretation' of the Words that are there, 'the kingdom of heaven' be ignored;

    and then, secondly, assigning new writing into God's Word, and placing the word, "God" in place of words that are there are also brand new concepts for me to consider.

    Personally, I can see where those new "take away" and "add to" portions of that procedure would, "shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.".


    ...

    Have you ever read Matthew 13?

    And if so, did you take away and add to the Scripture there, too?

    If you read The Bible, Matthew 13 includes,

    "10 And the disciples came, and said unto him,
    Why speakest thou unto them in parables?


    11 He answered and said unto them,
    Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven,


    but to them it is not given."

    It is within the realm of possibility that you, and/ or other folks, are having difficulty with these passages because;

    When God hardens hearts (Romans 11) God is leaving them in their condition, spiritually, that is the result of "the Fall", which caused "total spiritual inability."

    I think it is O.K. for a person to say that as their own testimony here on the board if that were ever the case.

    When a light bulb comes on in a room, the electricity is seemingly hitting the bulb at exactly the same moment as the switch is flicked.

    However, logically that bulb would otherwise just sit there in it's a darkened state.

    So, for that bulb to light up, something else needs to actually happen, first, like someone turning the switch to the 'on' position and therewith suppling the otherwise darkened, dead bulb to light up.

    Jesus' teaching of the Hidden Treasure, in Matthew 13:44 is an Illustration and Revelation from God that, "some people do seek God and put their trust in Christ", and when they seek God and put their trust in Christ, both of those Actions are The Activity of God. The Parable is saying that some people grasp around a while, restless and troubled by their sin, prior to Jesus Saving them and others not in this Parable get Hit, Suddenly, as the case with Paul, and weren't 'seeking' Answers.

    "That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:" Acts 17:27

    Both were Providentially Dealt with, by God the Holy Spirit, whether seeking or simply, as with Lidia, when all three Had their Hearts Opened by the Lord.

    3) I address the doctrines found in published presentations of the TULIP.

    4) The TULIP of the tulip have no support in "what is called the Bible."

    Praise The Lord, all of the premises and Teachings of TULIP, etc., are Gloriously Embedded in EVERY VERSE of The Bible.

    The first one is the only one of importance for the lost to contemplate; not the overthrow of The Eternal Covenant of Salvation Revealed in The Bible, by The Triune Godhead.
     
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  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Alan, your efforts seem inadequate.

    First, apparently your view is people can be entering the kingdom of heaven without seeking God. Twaddle

    Denial Matthew 23:13 presents people seeking God is ludicrous.

    Charging me with altering the text is simply deflection.

    "Have you ever read Matthew 13?" Yes I have. And I asked why Jesus spoke in parables if "total spiritual inability" was valid. I did not see an answer.

    I asked why God hardened hearts in Romans 11 if "total spiritual inability" is valid. I did not see an answer.

    Now you claim His hardening did nothing, just left them in their previously hardened condition. Pure twaddle.

    Your claim those seeking God were under the influence of irresistible grace is pure fabrication.
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1) Just read the passage, it means what it says.
    2) Your view puts your plan of salvation by compulsion in place of God's actual plan of choosing those whose faith in the truth has been credited as righteousness.
    3) You "based on what" is a denial of the obvious. You do not need to blindfold a blind person, or put ear plugs in a deaf person's ears.
     
  16. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    Van,
    According to God's word, no one can enter into the kingdom of God without being first, born-again:

    " Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." ( John 3:3 ).
    The new birth is a pre-requisite.

    " Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." ( John 3:5 )

    As I see it, the word of God here is the "water" ( please see John 15:3, John 17:17, Ephesians 5:26, Hebrews 10:22 ), otherwise we get "baptismal regeneration" out of "born of water", while being "born of the Spirit" is being born again.

    With these things stated, I see no way that anyone that is unregenerate can enter in, nor be "in the process" of entering in, unless and until the problem of their corrupt heart is dealt with by God.

    Firstly,

    There is none that truly seeks God ( Romans 3:10-18, Psalms 10:4, Psalms 14:1-3, Psalms 53:1-3 ) from the heart.
    Whether or not you see this, I find it important to emphasize, nonetheless.
    That is what I see Scripture clearly stating.

    The "wicked" as spoken of in the Psalms, are those, from God's point of view of being perfectly holy, that are not justified by His Son's blood ( Romans 5:9 ).
    They do not have His favor.
    The only difference between a righteous man and a wicked man at the end of it all, is God's justification of them ( Romans 8:33 ), their being regenerate ( born again ) and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...not their outward behavior.

    There simply is no such thing as true righteousness outside of being saved, regenerate ( born-again ) and justified in the sight of God....there is no way other than Christ, to come to the Father ( John 14:16 ), nor is there any way to enter in without Christ's imputed righteousness, the "wedding garment" of Matthew 22:1-14.

    Again, since no man can see the kingdom of God without being first born-again, then the ones entering in in Matthew 23:13, are those the Lord is telling the Pharisees that they are attempting to block through their doctrine...their "leaven" that He warned His disciples about ( Matthew 16:6-12, Mark 8:15 )

    Secondly,

    False doctrine makes no difference in the entire process, because what a person believes does not save them... God does ( Acts of the Apostles 2:39, Acts of the Apostles 2:47, Romans 8:29-30, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).
    If it did, then sinful men would control their own destinies, and God would only cast people into Hell who didn't "get everything right"...down to the gnat's wingtip.
    In other words, if belief of correct doctrine actually resulted in entering into the kingdom of God, then men could simply "spin the roulette wheel" until it came up on their "number", or "turn the tumblers on the 10 digit padlock", or "roll the dice" until it came up "snake eyes"... and "voila!", in they go.


    With respect, how is believing "all the right Christian teachings" that results in gaining entrance into God's presence, any different than other world religions... that teach that believing and following their teachings actually results in gaining entrance to "Nirvana"?

    Valhalla?
    Elysium?
    Jannah?
    Moksha?
    Paradise?
    Takamagahara?
    Vyraj?

    God's word teaches no such thing as "doctrine determines destiny", like the ones above.

    Rather, it teaches that those who know God will come into the unity of the faith ( Ephesians 4:13 ), they know all things ( 1 John 2:20 ), God is their Teacher, not men ( 1 John 2:27 ), they have all things pertaining to life and godliness through His divine power ( 2 Peter 1:3 ) and they are not only able, but commanded to add to their knowledge of Him many things ( 2 Peter 1:5-7 ).

    They inherently know His voice ( John 10:27 ), and will not follow another ( John 10:1-5 ).
    They will grow both in knowledge and grace ( 2 Peter 3:18 ).
    None of the ones given to the Father by the Son will be lost ( John 6:37-40 ), so false doctrine has no lasting effect on them, and neither do false teachers, who are able to deceive the masses, but are unable to deceive the very elect ( Matthew 24:24 ).

    I urge you to look at it all again, sir.
    Regrettably, not only is my view completely different than yours, but I think that you're overlooking some very important things that the Bible says about God's children...who the lost are, and who the saved are..:(
     
    #16 Dave Gilbert, Jul 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
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  17. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    I'm starting to think you don't even know what exegesis is....
     
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  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Right, we all know how you like to disparage others.
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Dave, lets see if I can distill post # 16.

    1) Even though Matthew 23:13 says the people were "entering the kingdom of heaven" you say they were not, unless they had been put in Christ and regenerated. Nonsense. They were prevented from completing the entry, therefore were not regenerated. But to be in the process means they were seeking God, thus demonstrating "total spiritual inability"is invalid.

    2) No verse says or suggests there are none that "truly" seek God. Matthew 23:13 says some people do truly seek God.

    3) You refer to Psalm 14:1-3 but fail to mention verses 4-6 where some seek God as a refuge.

    4) Of course people can be aware of the kingdom of God, no verse says otherwise. You have to be born anew to see it from the inside, after entering. John 3: 3 and 5 are saying the same thing. Calvinists try to misinterpret "see" as meaning visualize, when the meaning is like to "see" someone for an appointment, which requires entry.

    5) Next you deny we are saved by grace through faith and we are chosen individually for salvation through faith in the truth. Twaddle

    6) No one said or suggested "believing the right things" saved anyone. Please address the actual view, we are saved when God alone credits our faith, as worthless as it may be, as righteousness.

    7) Next you say false teachers and "another gospel" do not matter. More twaddle ignoring passage after passage.
     
  20. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Again, let me set the truth before the readers.

    Matthew is written primarily FOR the JEWS. Gentiles can find the wisdom of Matthew, but taking Matthew's statements out of the context of the Jewish experience may more often muddle the application. Right thinking must include the Jewish perspective of Matthew, NOT the gentile thinking. This is true even with the "sermon on the mount" and other passages. The perspective must remain, or the foundational principles taught loose their footing.

    The Jews used the temple sacrificial system to acquire acceptance before God and to enter paradise - that they upon death would enter what they considered the kingdom of God - think of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Where was God, where was the rich man.

    Because the rulers of the Jews had total control over the temple, they in effect exercised control over entering or exclusion from what the Jews considered the kingdom of God.

    To consider any other perspective is to "Gentile" Matthew to the point of lost meaning and misapplication.

    Early on the thread, Van uses demeaning such as "twaddle." This is mere validation that what he offers from Matthew 23:13 has no value. He does not view the passage from the Jewish perspective of the author and therefore has no authority to even suggest that what he proposes carries any weight.

    Should he have taken the rightful view of the Jewish customs and conditions from which Matthew writes, he would not have made such and error of judgement.
     
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